Dear Wolfgang,

In addition to Gerald's comments, I'd like to add that the distinction between "finding"
in physical presence of the Actor and "finding" by data evaluation lies in the way we would
reason about sources of knowledge & errors, even both could be named "find".

In case of physical presence, we would rely on a combination of sensory impressions of the
Actor and signals of his instruments. We would seek verification from both, and conclude
where the Actor "was present at".

In case of data evaluation, all knowledge about this process can be verified/falsified with the
data and metadata known to the evaluator. One would reason about the reliability by the quality
and type of the measured signal.

Since ontologies are not dictionaries, lectical identity is not a concern :-) .

Further, the place where an observation takes place includes the observer, the observed and his instruments,
in any case in the meter scale or more. Therefore we distinguish a spot, which is result of an observation, from
the space in which the observation was made.

It is an ISSUE to clarify this interpretation of "took place at".

All the best,


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: AW: [Crm-sig] finding things
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:27:34 +0300
From: Gerald Hiebel <>
To: 'Wolfgang Schmidle' <>
CC: martin <>



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Crm-sig [] Im Auftrag von Wolfgang Schmidle
Gesendet: Montag, 30. Juni 2014 14:03
Betreff: [Crm-sig] finding things


I see that the Find event in archaeology has found a new home in the Scientific Observation model extension of the CRM, in the form of S19 Encounter Event, subclass of S4 Observation, in turn subclass of E13 Attribute Assignment. That seems sensible.


However, I am struggling with the Scope note of „O21 has found at (witnessed): E53 Place“ in CRMsci 1.2.1: „This property associates an instance of S19 Encounter Event with an instance of E53 Place at which an encounter event found things. It identifies the narrower spatial location in which a thing was found at. This maybe known or given in absolute terms or relative to the thing found. It describes a position within the area in which the instance of the encounter event occurred and found something.“


* Apparently the Find event has to take place where the object is. In other words, someone can detect an object e.g. on an aerial photo but the Find event is still where the object is and not where the person looking at the photo is located. Is this correct?

A Find event can not occur on an aerial foto, this would be an inference. Only if you go to the location and really find something this would be classified as find event.


* Is O21 has found at (witnessed) a subproperty of P7 took place at (witnessed), or not? (If O21 is not a subproperty of P7, the reason should be made clear in the Scope note.)

O21 has found at is not a subproperty of P7 took place at as the intention is to use P7 for a “broader spatial location” whereas O21 has found at should denote the „narrower spatial location“ which can be used for spatial reasoning as it should be a location which is within the inner bounds of the Find.

* The „narrower spatial location“ seems to suggest this chain: S19 Encounter Event O21 has found at P53 Place (the narrower spatial location) P89 falls within E53 Place (e.g. the excavation site). Is this what is meant?

P89 falls within E53 Place (e.g. the excavation site) may be used, but S19 Encounter Event P9i forms part of an excavation E5 Event or even an A1 Excavation Process Unit would provide more information.

* I don’t understand „a position within the area in which the instance of the encounter event occurred“. It seems to suggest that the place of „O21 has found at“ is smaller than the place of „P7 took place at“, ideally even a single point. If so, why is this distinction made?

The idea is that the S19 Encounter Event P7 takes place in the “broader spatial location” while O21 has found at denotes a location which is within the inner bounds of the Find.

* maybe —> may be?

* „or relative to the thing found“: What would be a meaningful example for this?

“given in absolute terms or relative to the thing found”, relative vs. absolute in terms of coordinate system. Example for relative could be 10m from the door of the room in north direction










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