[Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Francesco Beretta francesco.beretta at cnrs.fr
Thu Jan 6 21:03:28 EET 2022


Dear Martin, and (indirectly) Rob and George,

Thank you for your comments.

Le 06.01.22 à 18:13, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit :
> Dear Francesco,
>
> Your arguments well taken, I repeat:
>
> The speech act in CRM is identical to the sale, (Acquisition), if at 
> all the speech act has a legal character, and if at all the sale is 
> executed via speech act, and not via e-commerce or whatsoever.

The point is: why care at all about building CRMsoc if everything is 
already present in CRMbase? And, furthermore, are we sure that we have a 
well grounded foundational analysis of social facts in CRMbase? 
Especially as we know that it's grounded in the epistemic view of 
classical physic (I mean not quantic)?  Isn't this a somehow different 
domain of discourse from social life as such? And shouldn't we take car 
not to model a domain without taking into account the paradigms of the 
disciplines studying the domain under consideration, i.e. social life?

A 'speech act' is the appellation by social philosophers of what I would 
call a social event from the perspective of social sciences. It can 
happen, of course, via a click on a website, and then it's the buyer 
moving the finger which is the physical,human event tht provides the 
setting of the acquisition speech act/social event. crm:E8 Acquisition 
is clearly a subclass of speech act/social event insofar as ownership is 
not a physical state but a social connotation added by some humans, 
collectively, to a physical thing. In the perspective of CRMsoc, the 
change in ownership, i.e. an acquisition is therefore a speech 
act/social event.


>
> The negotiation has no deterministic connection with the sales, hence, 
> ontologically, it is independent. t is also legally different.

To come back to the specific topic, I used the example of negotiation 
not in a metaphysic sense but just as an example on a Saturday market. 
The crm:E7 Activity of type 'Negotiation about the price' of this 
sausage happens in time and space, but the change of ownership of the 
physical human made thing —once the price is set— happens just in human 
minds, and our there presents dogs of course still hope to receive a bit 
of the sausage but do not know, as non humans, what property means.

So, just for the sake of the example, and not 'deterministically' a 
negotiation can end in a sale or not. There are two 'events', the 
negociation and the sale. The type of the first event is 'negotiation' 
and (to use Rob's propery identifier) the 'triggered_activity_of_type' 
is 'acquisition' or 'non purchasing' as a E55_Type .

If we take a more physical event, an attempt of assassination of a 
minister, we could know who was trying the bring this activity to an 
end, and who was the target of the attack, but the 'oucome type' would 
be 'failed'.

-- Activity 'one' (of type 'one') /triggered/ (also a missing, useful 
property) Activity or event two (of type two).

-- [shortcut] Activity 'one' triggered activity/event of type two

The substance is in the causal sequence (as the content of the available 
information).

All the best

Francesco

>
> Therefore, the sales can be regarded as continuation of the offer. 
> What if someone offers an object that is not his?, this happens.
>
> I maintain that "outcome" is too narrow for reality.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Martin
>
> On 1/6/2022 2:47 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote:
>>
>> Dear George, Martin,
>>
>> Let's take an exemple: there is a negotiation that results in a sale, 
>> i.e. a change of ownership of some physical object.
>>
>> The negotiation belongs to the physical, human space: it is an event 
>> of type negotiation. It can result, or not, in a speech act changing 
>> the ownership of the physical object. The new ownership starting then 
>> is the outcome of the negotiation event and it belongs to the social 
>> space (CRMsoc). The speech act is inbetween, it is a social event 
>> (change in connotation of a physical object in the representations of 
>> humans) but has as setting a physical human event. The speech act, as 
>> social event, could have the type 'change of ownership'. And the 
>> result is, as said, a new social situation, a new property situation 
>> of the physical object.
>>
>> It seems therefore reasonable, as George proposes since the 
>> beginning, to add to the event a 'has outcome' property (or a similar 
>> one) as a shortcut linking to the type of the event that is the 
>> outcome of, or results from the first, trigger' event, a speech act 
>> in the case of an object's sale but it could be —in the physical, 
>> human world— a birth, in the case of a 'one-night stand', or a death 
>> in the case of an attempted assassination.
>>
>> I am therefore in favour of introducing a property of this type, 
>> which we have been using for years, in a similar form, in the 
>> symogih.org project because often in history we know the 'trigger' 
>> event but only the type of the outcome.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Francesco
>>
>>
>> Le 06.01.22 à 12:54, George Bruseker via Crm-sig a écrit :
>>> Hi Martin,
>>>
>>> So the context for this is that there are provenance events being 
>>> described and there is categorical knowledge derivable from the 
>>> source material which a researcher might want to attribute to the 
>>> event on what generally happened, the event ended in a sale, didn't 
>>> end in a sale etc.
>>>
>>> The cheap and cheerful solution would just be to put this as a p2 
>>> has type... the typical solution.
>>>
>>> It would nice to be more accurate though since the categorization 
>>> isn't of the event itself but of its typical outcome. So the case 
>>> that comes up here is that provenance researchers want to classify 
>>> the outcomes of an event by type regardless of their knowledge of 
>>> the specifics of what went on in that event (because the source 
>>> material may simply not allow them to know).
>>>
>>> In this context, as type the outcome value will be used for 
>>> categorization, how many events resulted in 'sale' how many in 'not 
>>> sale'.
>>>
>>> In a real query scenario it would be asking questions like how many 
>>> events of such and such a type had what kinds of outcome. Or maybe 
>>> how many events with such and such a general purpose had such and 
>>> such a general outcome. And then filter by time, space, people etc.
>>>
>>> It would be very interesting to seek other examples of general 
>>> outcome recording for events in other contexts and see if this is a 
>>> generally useful property to define.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 7:28 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig 
>>> <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr> wrote:
>>>
>>>     In continuation:
>>>
>>>     "Sold", "completed", "incomplete" are very specific things.
>>>     Objects are offered for sale, which does not imply anything more
>>>     than a sort of publication. Actual purchase is a reaction on the
>>>     offer.  Purchase may happen without offer. Actual change of
>>>     ownership is modeled in the CRM. The type of the event itself
>>>     implies per default completion, such as production, modification
>>>     etc.
>>>
>>>     The interesting case are processes which are known to be
>>>     abandoned, but what that means needs further investigation: How
>>>     much of action has been done and left historical traces?
>>>
>>>     Processes which have not been finished during recording time are
>>>     another case. This is notoriously difficult, and resembles the
>>>     "current" discussions. We may need an "still ongoing", which
>>>     should be harmonized with the time-spans.
>>>
>>>     Unknown parameters of an event, such as purchase from unknown to
>>>     unknown, do not need a n "outcome" property, but are just a
>>>     specific event an object has experienced.
>>>
>>>     Isn't it?
>>>
>>>     Other kinds of "outcomes" can be modifications, obligations,
>>>     receiving knowledge of, transfer of properties between
>>>     "input-output" etc. May be it is time to study if we can create
>>>     a relatively comprehensive list. Some events may only leave
>>>     memory as only persistent thing, e.g. performances.
>>>
>>>     To be discussed!😁
>>>
>>>     Best,
>>>
>>>     Martin
>>>
>>>     On 12/31/2021 8:29 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote:
>>>>     Dear All,
>>>>
>>>>     The missing property of outcome is so far deliberate in the
>>>>     CRM, because we could not identify a general case. In contrast,
>>>>     there are models with input-output semantics, but this is a
>>>>     very small subset.
>>>>
>>>>     As in all such cases, we first need a collection of examples,
>>>>     and study if there exist common semantics, or if it splits in a
>>>>     set of more specific cases. I'd expect about 5 kinds of
>>>>     outcomes. If you give me the time, I can present in the next
>>>>     meeting some.
>>>>
>>>>     All the best,
>>>>
>>>>     Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On 12/20/2021 6:45 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
>>>>>     Hi Thanasi,
>>>>>
>>>>>     The proposal creates a consistent way of doing the 'type of'
>>>>>     version of a property that relates one particular to another
>>>>>     particular.
>>>>>
>>>>>     So  each individual property:
>>>>>     https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>>>     has its typed version like:
>>>>>     https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>>>
>>>>>     Right?
>>>>>
>>>>>     But I contend there IS NO particular property in regular CRM
>>>>>     that expresses the semantics I indicate above (therefore the
>>>>>     proposal cannot generate its typed version). P21 DOES NOT
>>>>>     express the semantics I need (hence also not P23).
>>>>>
>>>>>     O13 triggers more or less does. in particular. But I need the
>>>>>     generalization. Triggered an outcome of type.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Anyhow, not sure if anyone else needs this, but very common in
>>>>>     my data.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>     G
>>>>>
>>>>>     On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 4:35 PM Athanasios Velios
>>>>>     <thanasis at softicon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         Following Athina's response and in relation to the
>>>>>         question about the
>>>>>         extant properties, I guess the "type of type" can be
>>>>>         replicated with
>>>>>         thesaurus related properties (e.g. P127 has broader term).
>>>>>         I would
>>>>>         consider the instances of E55 Type slightly differently to
>>>>>         normal
>>>>>         instances and not extent the idea to them.
>>>>>
>>>>>         T.
>>>>>
>>>>>         On 14/12/2021 19:42, George Bruseker wrote:
>>>>>         > Hi Thanasi,
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > Yes that's true. Good reminder. That might be a solution
>>>>>         but then we
>>>>>         > would need the particular property for expressing that
>>>>>         two events are
>>>>>         > causally connected. I avoided to put it in the last
>>>>>         email so as not to
>>>>>         > stir up to many semantic teapots. But obviously to have
>>>>>         the general
>>>>>         > property we should have the particular property. So we
>>>>>         have for example
>>>>>         > we have the particular properties:
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>>>
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         <https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1>
>>>>>         > and
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>>>
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         <https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1>
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > so the analogy to this in my situation is probably
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > O13 triggers (is triggered by)
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         https://cidoc-crm.org/crmsci/sites/default/files/CRMsci%20v.1.4.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         <https://cidoc-crm.org/crmsci/sites/default/files/CRMsci%20v.1.4.pdf>
>>>>>         > and we need the analogy of p21 to make the model
>>>>>         complete....
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > On another note out of curiosity, in the extension where
>>>>>         every property
>>>>>         > has a 'type of' property what happens with the extant
>>>>>         'type of'
>>>>>         > properties? I assume there isn't any has general purpose
>>>>>         of type
>>>>>         > property... or is there?
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > Cheers
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > G
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 9:20 PM Athanasios Velios via
>>>>>         Crm-sig
>>>>>         > <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >     Hi George, all,
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >     As part of Linked Conservation Data (and with the
>>>>>         help of Carlo, Martin
>>>>>         >     and Steve) we proposed the idea of Typed Properties
>>>>>         which derive from
>>>>>         >     current CRM properties and always have E55 Type as
>>>>>         range.
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >     E.g. "bears feature" → "bears feature of type" so
>>>>>         that one can describe
>>>>>         >     the type of something without specifying the
>>>>>         individual. It is very
>>>>>         >     economical in conservation where we want to avoid
>>>>>         describing
>>>>>         >     hundreds of
>>>>>         >     individuals of similar types.
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >     We are still baking the exact impact of such a
>>>>>         reduction from
>>>>>         >     individuals to Types. One issue in RDFS is the
>>>>>         multitude of new
>>>>>         >     properties. There seems to be a simple
>>>>>         implementation in OWL with
>>>>>         >     property paths. Not an immediate solution but a flag
>>>>>         for more to come.
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >     All the best,
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >     Thanasis
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >     On 14/12/2021 15:49, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
>>>>>         >      > Hi all,
>>>>>         >      >
>>>>>         >      > I have situations in which I have events where
>>>>>         the data curators
>>>>>         >      > describe events for which they have generic
>>>>>         knowledge of the
>>>>>         >     outcome:
>>>>>         >      > sold, completed, incomplete, this sort of thing.
>>>>>         So there is
>>>>>         >     knowledge
>>>>>         >      > but it is not knowledge of the particular next
>>>>>         event but of a
>>>>>         >     general
>>>>>         >      > kind of outcome.
>>>>>         >      >
>>>>>         >      > We have properties like: P21 had general purpose
>>>>>         (was purpose of)
>>>>>         >     which
>>>>>         >      > is very useful for when the data curator only has
>>>>>         generic knowledge
>>>>>         >      > knowledge and not particular knowledge regarding
>>>>>         purpose. This
>>>>>         >     seems a
>>>>>         >      > parallel to this case.
>>>>>         >      >
>>>>>         >      > Anybody else have this case and have an interest
>>>>>         in a property
>>>>>         >     like 'had
>>>>>         >      > general outcome' or 'had outcome of type' that
>>>>>         goes from Event to a
>>>>>         >      > Type? Or, better yet if possible, a solution that
>>>>>         doesn't involve
>>>>>         >     a new
>>>>>         >      > property but that does meet this semantic need
>>>>>         without too many
>>>>>         >     contortions?
>>>>>         >      >
>>>>>         >      > Best,
>>>>>         >      >
>>>>>         >      > George
>>>>>         >      >
>>>>>         >      > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>         >     <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig>
>>>>>         >      >
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     ------------------------------------
>>>>       Dr. Martin Doerr
>>>>                    
>>>>       Honorary Head of the
>>>>       Center for Cultural Informatics
>>>>       
>>>>       Information Systems Laboratory
>>>>       Institute of Computer Science
>>>>       Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>>>                        
>>>>       N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>>>>       GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>>>>       
>>>>       Vox:+30(2810)391625
>>>>       Email:martin at ics.forth.gr   
>>>>       Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>     Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>     http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>     ------------------------------------
>>>       Dr. Martin Doerr
>>>                    
>>>       Honorary Head of the
>>>       Center for Cultural Informatics
>>>       
>>>       Information Systems Laboratory
>>>       Institute of Computer Science
>>>       Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>>                        
>>>       N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>>>       GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>>>       
>>>       Vox:+30(2810)391625
>>>       Email:martin at ics.forth.gr   
>>>       Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> -- 
> ------------------------------------
>   Dr. Martin Doerr
>                
>   Honorary Head of the
>   Center for Cultural Informatics
>   
>   Information Systems Laboratory
>   Institute of Computer Science
>   Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>                    
>   N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>   GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>   
>   Vox:+30(2810)391625
>   Email:martin at ics.forth.gr   
>   Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>
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