[Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?
Martin Doerr
martin at ics.forth.gr
Thu Jan 6 20:42:09 EET 2022
Sorry,
I mean (Oxford Dictionary):
"outcome
noun [ C usually singular ]
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/help/codes.html>
uk
/ˈaʊt.kʌm/ us
/ˈaʊt.kʌm/
C1
a result
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/result> or
effect <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/effect>
of an action
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/action>,
situation
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/situation>, etc.:
It's too early to predict
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/predict> the
outcome of the meeting
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/meeting>.
Thesaurus: synonyms, antonyms, and examples
the result of something
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/thesaurus/articles/the-result-of-something>
* result <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/thesaurus/result>His
firing was a direct result of his refusal to follow the employment
policies.
* effect <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/thesaurus/effect>The
radiation leak has had a disastrous effect on the environment.
* consequence
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/thesaurus/consequence>Failure
to do proper safety checks may have serious consequences.
* outcome <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/thesaurus/outcome>It's
too early to predict the outcome of the meeting.
* upshot <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/thesaurus/upshot>The
upshot of the discussions is that there will be no further redundancies.
* end result
<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/thesaurus/end-result>The end
result of these changes should be a more efficient system for
dealing with complaints.
What do you mean of all that? The fact that equivalent words exist in
some other languages has nothing to do with definition.
I hope this is comprehensible.
Best,
Martin
On 1/6/2022 8:21 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote:
>
> I agree with Francesco -- anywhere we don't have complete knowledge of
> the activities there will be utility to such a shortcut, when there is
> an intended outcome, but one which is not certain.
>
> An archeological expedition -- resulted in outcome of type "came home
> empty handed" / "found something"
> Commission of an artwork -- resulted in outcome of type "artist ran
> off with the money" / "artist produced something else" / "artist
> produced what was wanted" / ...
> Exhibition planning -- resulted in outcome of type "exhibition" / "no
> exhibition" / "revised exhibition" / ...
> Conservation of object -- resulted in outcome of type "destroyed
> object by mistake" / "no change" / "repaired damage" / ...
> etc.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:56 PM George Bruseker
> <george.bruseker at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Rob / Martin,
>
> Yes, Rob provides a nice instance example.
>
> Again, I just want to explore whether such a property has
> applications beyond this scope. Perhaps it isn't needed but if we
> look at more examples maybe a generalization will arise.
>
> Best,
>
> George
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:53 PM Robert Sanderson
> <azaroth42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Let me try and explain my understanding
>
> There are events, such as the auction of a specific lot, in
> which the objects in the lot are offered for sale.
>
> That event might result in the transfer of ownership of the
> objects in the lot from their current owner to the new owner,
> but they might not -- there might be no bidders, the reserve
> price might not be met, etc. At which point there is no
> transfer of ownership at all, and hence we should not create
> an E8 Acquisition because there was no change in ownership.
>
> So ... we have established that the auction of the lot is not
> the same entity as the E8 acquisition, which might be
> triggered by the auction of lot. Let's just call it an E7
> Activity.
>
> Now, lets assume that we do not know anything at all about
> that Acquisition. So, much like the other *_of_type
> properties, we don't want to instantiate an E8 which was
> triggered by the E7 but with no properties, but instead to
> just say that the E7 resulted in an activity of_type Sale, or
> of_type Return, or of_type Unknown, or of_type Bought In.
>
> Thus:
>
> <auction_of_lot1> a E7_Activity ;
> carried_out_by <auction house> ;
> triggered_activity_of_type <bought-in> .
>
> <bought-in> a E55_Type .
>
> Something like that?
>
> Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:28 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
> <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr> wrote:
>
> Hi George,
>
> Please explain in more detail:
>
> On 1/6/2022 1:54 PM, George Bruseker wrote:
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> So the context for this is that there are provenance
>> events being described and there is categorical knowledge
>> derivable from the source material which a researcher
>> might want to attribute to the event on what generally
>> happened, the event ended in a sale, didn't end in a sale
>> etc.
> What sort of event would "end in a sale", and why this
> event is not a sale itself, or why the sale itself is not
> an event in its own right. Can you cite an instance? Since
> I have happened to make full analysis of auction house
> actions and internet sales offers, I would need more details.
>
> I used a model which simply separates the sales offer from
> the legal transaction. The sale itself is not an outcome
> in this model, but motivated by the offer. Note that sales
> may be done without offer. Requests for sales are also
> different communications.
>
> I did not see a need to describe "outcome" in general terms.
>
> Further, could you better explain what you mean by
> "outcome" other than common language? Could you give a
> semantic definition, that would separate expextations from
> necessities, prerequisites and deterministic behaviour etc. ?
>
> I seriuosly do not understand that "outcome" has an
> ontological nature. For the time being I recognize it as a
> word of a language.
>>
>> The cheap and cheerful solution would just be to put this
>> as a p2 has type... the typical solution.
> I principally disagree that cheap is cheerful. This is not
> a CRM Principle. P2 has type has never been a cheap
> solution. It is very precisly described as specialization
> without adding properties. I honestly do not understand
> what the type would pertain to, once it may not
> characterize the event, but an event to follow?
>>
>> It would nice to be more accurate though since the
>> categorization isn't of the event itself but of its
>> typical outcome.
> Exactly, if I would understand he sense of "outcome", I
> could follow you better. Note, that words and senses are
> different, and CRM is not modelling English language.
>> So the case that comes up here is that provenance
>> researchers want to classify the outcomes of an event by
>> type regardless of their knowledge of the specifics of
>> what went on in that event (because the source material
>> may simply not allow them to know).
>>
> Please provide instances.
>> In this context, as type the outcome value will be used
>> for categorization, how many events resulted in 'sale'
>> how many in 'not sale'.
>>
>> In a real query scenario it would be asking questions
>> like how many events of such and such a type had what
>> kinds of outcome. Or maybe how many events with such and
>> such a general purpose had such and such a general
>> outcome. And then filter by time, space, people etc.
>>
>> It would be very interesting to seek other examples of
>> general outcome recording for events in other contexts
>> and see if this is a generally useful property to define.
> Still, you use the term "outcome", without explaining it,
> isn't it? I honestly do not regard it as self-evident, and
> I had already written that in previous messages.
>
> Best,
>
> Martin
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> George
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 7:28 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
>> <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr> wrote:
>>
>> In continuation:
>>
>> "Sold", "completed", "incomplete" are very specific
>> things. Objects are offered for sale, which does not
>> imply anything more than a sort of publication.
>> Actual purchase is a reaction on the offer. Purchase
>> may happen without offer. Actual change of ownership
>> is modeled in the CRM. The type of the event itself
>> implies per default completion, such as production,
>> modification etc.
>>
>> The interesting case are processes which are known to
>> be abandoned, but what that means needs further
>> investigation: How much of action has been done and
>> left historical traces?
>>
>> Processes which have not been finished during
>> recording time are another case. This is notoriously
>> difficult, and resembles the "current" discussions.
>> We may need an "still ongoing", which should be
>> harmonized with the time-spans.
>>
>> Unknown parameters of an event, such as purchase from
>> unknown to unknown, do not need a n "outcome"
>> property, but are just a specific event an object has
>> experienced.
>>
>> Isn't it?
>>
>> Other kinds of "outcomes" can be modifications,
>> obligations, receiving knowledge of, transfer of
>> properties between "input-output" etc. May be it is
>> time to study if we can create a relatively
>> comprehensive list. Some events may only leave memory
>> as only persistent thing, e.g. performances.
>>
>> To be discussed!😁
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On 12/31/2021 8:29 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote:
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> The missing property of outcome is so far deliberate
>>> in the CRM, because we could not identify a general
>>> case. In contrast, there are models with
>>> input-output semantics, but this is a very small subset.
>>>
>>> As in all such cases, we first need a collection of
>>> examples, and study if there exist common semantics,
>>> or if it splits in a set of more specific cases. I'd
>>> expect about 5 kinds of outcomes. If you give me the
>>> time, I can present in the next meeting some.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/20/2021 6:45 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Thanasi,
>>>>
>>>> The proposal creates a consistent way of doing the
>>>> 'type of' version of a property that relates one
>>>> particular to another particular.
>>>>
>>>> So each individual property:
>>>> https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>> has its typed version like:
>>>> https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>>
>>>> Right?
>>>>
>>>> But I contend there IS NO particular property in
>>>> regular CRM that expresses the semantics I indicate
>>>> above (therefore the proposal cannot generate its
>>>> typed version). P21 DOES NOT express the semantics
>>>> I need (hence also not P23).
>>>>
>>>> O13 triggers more or less does. in particular. But
>>>> I need the generalization. Triggered an outcome of
>>>> type.
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, not sure if anyone else needs this, but
>>>> very common in my data.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> G
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 4:35 PM Athanasios Velios
>>>> <thanasis at softicon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Following Athina's response and in relation to
>>>> the question about the
>>>> extant properties, I guess the "type of type"
>>>> can be replicated with
>>>> thesaurus related properties (e.g. P127 has
>>>> broader term). I would
>>>> consider the instances of E55 Type slightly
>>>> differently to normal
>>>> instances and not extent the idea to them.
>>>>
>>>> T.
>>>>
>>>> On 14/12/2021 19:42, George Bruseker wrote:
>>>> > Hi Thanasi,
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes that's true. Good reminder. That might be
>>>> a solution but then we
>>>> > would need the particular property for
>>>> expressing that two events are
>>>> > causally connected. I avoided to put it in
>>>> the last email so as not to
>>>> > stir up to many semantic teapots. But
>>>> obviously to have the general
>>>> > property we should have the particular
>>>> property. So we have for example
>>>> > we have the particular properties:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> <https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1>
>>>> > and
>>>> >
>>>> https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> <https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P21-had-general-purpose/version-7.1.1>
>>>> >
>>>> > so the analogy to this in my situation is
>>>> probably
>>>> >
>>>> > O13 triggers (is triggered by)
>>>> >
>>>> https://cidoc-crm.org/crmsci/sites/default/files/CRMsci%20v.1.4.pdf
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> <https://cidoc-crm.org/crmsci/sites/default/files/CRMsci%20v.1.4.pdf>
>>>> > and we need the analogy of p21 to make the
>>>> model complete....
>>>> >
>>>> > On another note out of curiosity, in the
>>>> extension where every property
>>>> > has a 'type of' property what happens with
>>>> the extant 'type of'
>>>> > properties? I assume there isn't any has
>>>> general purpose of type
>>>> > property... or is there?
>>>> >
>>>> > Cheers
>>>> >
>>>> > G
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 9:20 PM Athanasios
>>>> Velios via Crm-sig
>>>> > <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi George, all,
>>>> >
>>>> > As part of Linked Conservation Data (and
>>>> with the help of Carlo, Martin
>>>> > and Steve) we proposed the idea of Typed
>>>> Properties which derive from
>>>> > current CRM properties and always have
>>>> E55 Type as range.
>>>> >
>>>> > E.g. "bears feature" → "bears feature of
>>>> type" so that one can describe
>>>> > the type of something without specifying
>>>> the individual. It is very
>>>> > economical in conservation where we want
>>>> to avoid describing
>>>> > hundreds of
>>>> > individuals of similar types.
>>>> >
>>>> > We are still baking the exact impact of
>>>> such a reduction from
>>>> > individuals to Types. One issue in RDFS
>>>> is the multitude of new
>>>> > properties. There seems to be a simple
>>>> implementation in OWL with
>>>> > property paths. Not an immediate solution
>>>> but a flag for more to come.
>>>> >
>>>> > All the best,
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanasis
>>>> >
>>>> > On 14/12/2021 15:49, George Bruseker via
>>>> Crm-sig wrote:
>>>> > > Hi all,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I have situations in which I have
>>>> events where the data curators
>>>> > > describe events for which they have
>>>> generic knowledge of the
>>>> > outcome:
>>>> > > sold, completed, incomplete, this sort
>>>> of thing. So there is
>>>> > knowledge
>>>> > > but it is not knowledge of the
>>>> particular next event but of a
>>>> > general
>>>> > > kind of outcome.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > We have properties like: P21 had
>>>> general purpose (was purpose of)
>>>> > which
>>>> > > is very useful for when the data
>>>> curator only has generic knowledge
>>>> > > knowledge and not particular knowledge
>>>> regarding purpose. This
>>>> > seems a
>>>> > > parallel to this case.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Anybody else have this case and have
>>>> an interest in a property
>>>> > like 'had
>>>> > > general outcome' or 'had outcome of
>>>> type' that goes from Event to a
>>>> > > Type? Or, better yet if possible, a
>>>> solution that doesn't involve
>>>> > a new
>>>> > > property but that does meet this
>>>> semantic need without too many
>>>> > contortions?
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Best,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > George
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>>>> > >
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>>>> >
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> Dr. Martin Doerr
>>>
>>> Honorary Head of the
>>> Center for Cultural Informatics
>>>
>>> Information Systems Laboratory
>>> Institute of Computer Science
>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>>
>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>>>
>>> Vox:+30(2810)391625
>>> Email:martin at ics.forth.gr
>>> Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Crm-sig mailing list
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>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------
>> Dr. Martin Doerr
>>
>> Honorary Head of the
>> Center for Cultural Informatics
>>
>> Information Systems Laboratory
>> Institute of Computer Science
>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>
>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>>
>> Vox:+30(2810)391625
>> Email:martin at ics.forth.gr
>> Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Crm-sig mailing list
>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
> Dr. Martin Doerr
>
> Honorary Head of the
> Center for Cultural Informatics
>
> Information Systems Laboratory
> Institute of Computer Science
> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>
> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>
> Vox:+30(2810)391625
> Email:martin at ics.forth.gr
> Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>
>
> --
> Rob Sanderson
> Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata
> Yale University
>
>
>
> --
> Rob Sanderson
> Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata
> Yale University
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:martin at ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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