[Crm-sig] Issue 554 Examples for E4 Period

Martin Doerr martin at ics.forth.gr
Fri Oct 8 20:24:46 EEST 2021

Dear All,

Please let me add some clarifications.

All valid aspects that you mention😁

.. but with the Russian example I wanted to describe an administrative 
unit, not to explain the term "capital of Russia", nor who maintains it. 
I follow Oeyvind's arguments about the complexity of involved actors. 
So, let's not make it too complicated. If a better term than "capital" 
needs to be or can be found, the better.

The point with the Helsinki example is that settlement and 
administrative unit are completely different in substance.

When the Russian capital moved, the settling activity did not abandon 
Moscow and later St. Petersburg. The cities did not change names. Only 
the administrators/governmental bodies will have moved, and associated 
businesses and nobles. When the Helsinki settlers moved, they may not 
have formed an administrative unit, or may be the administrative unit 
was larger, or administrative units stayed in place, or moved with the 
settlers, but the settlement activity abandoned the old place and 
populated the new area, as I understand, carrying with it its local 
name.  May be someone can add the details?

Therefore, I try to show that settling and administrative units should 
be  distinguished, regardless whether in former times administrative 
units may have imposed limits on settling activities.

Kiruna is nice and exactly up to the point, but ongoing, if I understand 

Wrt to Japan, I tried to find the official title of the current country 
as political unit. Can anybody help, our Japanese colleagues?   
"Country" may be better?



On 10/8/2021 7:27 PM, Øyvind Eide wrote:
> Hi, here are also some comments from me.
>> Am 07.10.2021 um 13:39 schrieb George Bruseker via Crm-sig 
>> <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>>:
>> Hi all,
>> I wonder about the phrasing of the examples (rather than the substance).
>>     *The Capital of Russia (E4) [the capital of Russia is an
>>     administrative unit that moved in historical times from Moscow to
>>     St Petersburg and again back to Moscow. This examplifies and
>>     administrative unit changing place over time without temporal
>>     discontinuity]
>> The existence of the Capital of Russia
>> (The phrase 'capital of Russia' sounds more like the actor or the 
>> geographic place)
> I would say the actor would be the state of Russia, and the place (in 
> CRM sense) is something quite different. It is of course the case that 
> ”geographic place” often refer more or less to what CRM calls a 
> Period, not what we call a Place.
> As for the example itself, I find it useful. There is a clear 
> continuity, and ”the Capital of Russia” has enough complexity to make 
> it comprehensible as a Period rather than an Actor. It is the 
> government but also a number of other institutions connected to it 
> (political organisations’ head quarters, all sorts of lobbyists, 
> embassies, spies, cultural institutions, etc. etc. It has a spatial 
> extent which for almost all capitals change over time, but also enough 
> continuity.
>>     *  The settling activity of the community of Hersinki (or
>>     Helsingfors) (E7) [the old settlement of Helsinki (or
>>     Helsingfors) was located in the area of the modern airport. The
>>     community moved later to settle on the coast. This exemplies a
>>     continued activity changing place over time without temporal
>>     discontinuity]
> Also good, but does it add anything to the Russian example? Is the 
> point to show that the movements can be gradual? Or short distance?
> One alternative would be Kiruna: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiruna#Moving_the_town 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiruna#Moving_the_town>
>>     * Bronze Period (E4) [Bronze Period spread out into disjoint
>>     areas including islands such as the British Islands without
>>     temporal discontinuity]
> Classical example which confirms that what we know as periods are, 
> indeed, also CRM Periods. Necessary.
>>     * The nation of Japan (E4) [In 2021, the Japanese nation
>>     comprises in 6852 islands extending along the Pacific coast of Asia]
>> The existence of the nation of Japan
>> Again, the straight phrase nation of Japan sounds more like E39 Actor 
>> or E53 Place.
> Country instead of nation?
> All the best,
> Øyvind
>> Best,
>> George
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  Dr. Martin Doerr
  Honorary Head of the
  Center for Cultural Informatics
  Information Systems Laboratory
  Institute of Computer Science
  Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
  N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
  Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

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