[Crm-sig] Issue 511
martin at ics.forth.gr
Tue Mar 2 23:25:37 EET 2021
Let me take up this issue, after new considerations:
*Posted by Robert Sanderson on 9/9/2020*
I believe that there is an inconsistency in the model for measurements
E54 Dimensions are associated directly with E70 Things using P43 has
dimension. So not every class can have dimensions, only those that are
descendents of E70.
However E16 Measurement's property P39 measured has a range of E1 CRM
Entity, meaning that while (for example) an E53 Place cannot have a
dimension, it can be measured to have a dimension. This seems
inconsistent that an entity that cannot have dimensions can still be
I propose that the range of P39 measured be changed to E70 Thing to
resolve this inconsistency.
I would also be okay with the other direction by changing the domain of
P43 has dimension to be E1 CRM Entity, however that seems like a much
more significant change, and would result in quite strange side effects
such as Dimensions having Dimensions.
*Posted by Robert on 9/9/2020*
Thanks Thanasis. Yes, there's various dimensions that are associated
with non-Things, and I agree that Place is particularly easy to justify.
Place: Area. The county of Los Angeles has a dimension of 4751 square
miles. If the place is approximate, then the radius of a centroid would
be an obvious dimension to record, or height/width for bounding box
Time-Span: Duration is already a property of a Time-Span that refers to
a dimension (P191). This could then be a subproperty of P43, or
deprecated in favor of a classification on the Dimension.
Temporal Entity and Spacetime Volume are a bit strange in relation to
Time-Span. Does the Period have the duration or the Time-Span, or both?
What if they're different
Conversely Dimensions seem like they should not have Dimensions.
We have to distinguish measurement from dimension. In order to measure
something in a narrower sense, I need an observation of something
material. Dimensions can also be result of computation, evaluation and
estimation (forms of Attribute Assignment).
If we look at measuring in the narrower sense, we can count the
characters of a text on paper, but not the abstract text. The logical
representation of a text can be evaluated for its dimensions.
We cannot measure a place, but features at a place. See also Issue 388.
But clearly, we can measure duration and extent of processes, and
comparing a clock, which provides a duration from the last sync event,
with some other transient situation or microevent, in order to calculate
So, we may assign the ability to be observed to E18 physical things and
E4 Period, or more narrowly to E5 Event.The ability to be observed
appears to need some common ontological nature, a certain materiality
interacting with measurable signals. Even the lightning creates a plasma
hose lasting some milliseconds. That would need a new class “Observable
Entity” as range.
Otherwise, we may regard measuring physical things and measuring
processes *as independent*. Then, we would need *another measurement
class*, such as “static measurement” versus “dynamic measurement”.
Dimensions of other things, such as places in the abstract geometric
sense of the CRM, need not be based on a common property. The place can
only have diameters and areas as dimentions, and may be some more exotic
ones. The dimension in the phenomenal timespan is of course that of the
respective period etc. So, my argument being that E53 Place, E52
Time-Span have their own properties with range Dimension, without being
regarded as observable (rather results of observation).
I’d propose the following:
Reduce in CRMbase Mesaurement , P40 observed dimension, to E18 Physical
Thing. Add 3 different properties “has dimension” in CRMBase to E70
Thing, E53 Place, E4 Period (or E2 Temp Entity).
Extent CRMSci by E18, E4 IsA Observable Entity, and extend Mesaurement
P40 observed dimension,from E18 to Observable Entity.
Alternatively, introduce “Dynamic Measurement”in CRMSci.
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
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