[Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question

Martin Doerr martin at ics.forth.gr
Mon Jan 20 18:12:32 EET 2020

On 1/20/2020 3:04 PM, George Bruseker wrote:
> Dear Christian Emil,
> I agree with what Franco says but still we have no property that 
> allows you to connect the two different meanings here entailed.
> I think this came up also with rights and the question of modelling 
> jurisdiction. We don't have a property to connect periods to groups 
> but what you present is the use case. I believe I have a homework to 
> make the subclass of period which is a jurisdiction and which would 
> have as its property 'under jurisdiction of' or equivalent which would 
> connect the group to the special form of period.
> Interested in joining that homework?

I do.

I have concerns reducing period to space time volume. The jurisdiction 
as a period for me has as parts all actions pertaining to that role (and 
falling under it ?).

We need someone to look up theory of states. There is a notion of the 
sovereign, which may be the people or an absolute king, and a notion of 
the executive institution, acting on behalf of the sovereign.

I doubt that the Swiss Confederation regards itself as being identical 
with the ruling political institution. I wonder if this violates the 
idea of representational democracy.

This deserves a well-justified model, compatible with legal theory of 

I believe it should be in CRMsoc.

Further, we should have an understanding how this applies or is clearly 
different to "city states" in the past with fuzzy territories.

Does it apply at all to a "Nomadic Empire" as the Golden Horde, or can 
we draw a line here.

All the best,


> Best,
> George
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:59 PM Franco Niccolucci 
> <franco.niccolucci at gmail.com <mailto:franco.niccolucci at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     The issue comes from the fact that the said President is not the
>     president of the mountains, lakes, plains etc that form
>     Switzerland; there are two “Swiss Confederation”s here: more
>     precisely, there is Switzerland (the territory) and the Swiss
>     Confederation (the political institution ruling Switzerland). In
>     other words, Ms. Sommaruga is the current President of the
>     Helvetic Confederation, not of the corresponding land, ruled by
>     the Confederation, which is a Space-time volume.
>     BTW, it is moreover incorrect the statement that the “President of
>     the Swiss Confederation” is a Group; it should be stated that the
>     “Head of State of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group, as
>     according to the Swiss Constitution this function is jointly
>     assigned to the Federal Council, a Group. The President is an
>     individual (a Person) who chairs the Council for one year as a
>     primus inter pares.
>     In sum, there are two different concepts associated with a country:
>     a) the territory, possibly variable in time, which is rightfully
>     modelled as a Space-time volume
>     b) the state, which depends on the political and legislative
>     structure and possibly on the international recognition; you
>     choose how to model it, perhaps as a Group? It has a beginning and
>     an end. E.g. France roughly corresponds in time to the same
>     territory but the state of France has been different: monarchy,
>     then republic, then empire, then monarchy and finally republic
>     again; such changes had no direct relationship with the changes of
>     the corresponding territory. Conversely, there may be changes in
>     the territory with no change in the state, for example the Kingdom
>     of Italy before and after each World War, same state, king and
>     Constitution but different territory. In 1946 Italy became a
>     Republic, political change but same territory.
>     Such difference is also evidenced by different names: Switzerland
>     versus Confoederatio Helvetica, Italy versus Italian Republic etc.
>     There is an obvious relationship between b) and a). But they are
>     not the same: if a) changes b) may remain the same and viceversa.
>     A President/King/citizen is president/etc. of b), not of a).
>     Examples where currently only one of a)/b) exists:
>     . the Sovereign Military Order of Malte
>     (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta)
>     is recognized by 107 states so it exists as a state but has no
>     territory on which it exerts its power. To the best of my
>     knowledge this is a unique case.
>     - the Republic of North Cyprus has a territory on which it exerts
>     its control but is not internationally recognized (except by
>     Turkey) so does not exist as a state.
>     Franco
>     Prof. Franco Niccolucci
>     Director, VAST-LAB
>     PIN - U. of Florence
>     Scientific Coordinator
>     Editor-in-Chief
>     ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)
>     Piazza Ciardi 25
>     59100 Prato, Italy
>     > Il giorno 20 gen 2020, alle ore 12:23, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>     <c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no <mailto:c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no>> ha scritto:
>     >
>     > Dear all
>     > As an example of an instance of  E24 Group one find "The
>     President of the Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How should one
>     link this instance to the Swiss Confederation​ which is modelled
>     as a instance of E4 Period?
>     >
>     > Best
>     > Christian-Emil
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  Dr. Martin Doerr
  Honorary Head of the
  Center for Cultural Informatics
  Information Systems Laboratory
  Institute of Computer Science
  Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
  N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
  Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

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