[Crm-sig] ISSUE: Scope note of E37 Mark

Christian-Emil Smith Ore c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no
Sun Jan 19 09:40:22 EET 2020


​I see your point, I have no problem with that and I have no intention to suggest that such a requirement should be added to some of the scopenotes. It is a meta interpretation of the model based on the scope notes not a part of the model as such.  if the part of a vusual sound track is depicted on a surface, then it may represent a linguistic object without being considered as atext


The inscription class itself depends on  how one defines 'text' (not easy) and with or without interpretation  'Ikke grin!' in Danish means 'Don't smile!' In Norwegian 'Don'cry!'. An engraving 'Ikke grin!​' is it one inscription, two inscrptions or no inscription (Mark) and simply a human made physical feature?


Best,

Christian-Emil







Expressions in formal languages, such as computer code or mathematical formulae, are not treated as instances of E33 Linguistic Object by the CIDOC CRM.

From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr>
Sent: 18 January 2020 21:28
To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE: Scope note of E37 Mark

I understand the following:

This means, that there cannot be Linguistic Objects among the marks that are not inscriptions.

This violates the Open World assumptions. We know that Inscriptions are also Linguistic Objects, but that does NOT imply that there may be other Linguistic Objects among the Marks.

It is most probably the case, but we neither know for sure, nor make such statements in the CRM.

I also do not see a particular utility in this statement.

All other rules A-D provided by Robert  appear to be correct.

Best,

Martin



On 1/18/2020 6:27 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote:

E37 Mark             E33 Linguistic Object

     |                                   /

E34 Inscription


​​E) No Marks which are not also Inscriptions are Linguistic Objects

The sentence is difficult to understand.  I try.
Pr defintion:
All (instances of E37) marks which are (instances of E34) Inscriptions are (instances of E33) Linguistic Objects.
The only difference between E34 Inscription and  E37 Mark is that E34 is a restriction of E37 Mark to those which also are  instances of  E33 Lingustic Object that is has a language.  Most sequences of letters and signs do not have a language.

C-E


From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr><mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr><mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
Sent: 18 January 2020 13:59
To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE: Scope note of E37 Mark

I also disagree with E, but letters and combinations should not be regarded Linguistic Objects. They do not have a particular language, translation etc. No need to make them linguistic objects.

Best,

Martin

On 1/18/2020 1:53 PM, Øyvind Eide wrote:
Dear all,

Given this answer to E is part of documentation practice, could it be solved by double instantiation?

All the best,

Øyvind

Am 17.01.2020 um 22:18 schrieb Ethan Gruber <ewg4xuva at gmail.com<mailto:ewg4xuva at gmail.com>>:

I agree with your assertion of D: that not all inscriptions are marks.

I disagree with E. A mark can most certainly be a letter or combination of letters. Have you ever noticed the letter "P" on an American coin? It's a mint mark representing Philadelphia. The "SC" characters on a Roman coin correspond to the authority of the Senate. These are obviously linguistic objects that carry a narrower semantic meaning as defined in the scope note for E37 Mark.

Ethan

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 3:49 PM Robert Sanderson <RSanderson at getty.edu<mailto:RSanderson at getty.edu>> wrote:

I think that I agree 😊 To be clearer about the inheritance that we’re discussing:


  *   A)  All Marks are Symbolic Objects
  *   B) All Linguistic Objects are Symbolic Objects
  *   C) All Inscriptions are Linguistic Objects
  *   D) All Inscriptions are Marks
  *   E) No Marks which are not also Inscriptions are Linguistic Objects

I believe the question is whether the last two assertions above are accurate.

For D, I would argue that the Balliol sign is not a Mark, as the symbolic content is not related to the intents given in the scope note, and thus either the scope note should be changed to remove the intents and be clearer about the nature of the class, or Inscription should not be a subclass of Mark.

For E, I would argue that if “short text” is included in the scope for the Mark class, then there must be some Marks that are Linguistic Objects as short text implies that the symbols encode some natural language. I think that the scope note should be changed to remove “short text” to avoid this issue. Marks should be explicitly NOT text and only symbols, and if there is a linguistic interpretation of the content, then they should instead be Inscriptions.

Hope that clarifies!

Rob

From: Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr<mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>
Date: Friday, January 17, 2020 at 10:35 AM
To: Robert Sanderson <RSanderson at getty.edu<mailto:RSanderson at getty.edu>>, crm-sig <Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>>
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE: Scope note of E37 Mark

Dear Robert,

Yes, that is a good question!
For a very long time, we had no feedback to this part f the CRM.

Be careful not to inherit things upstream. If a Mark is also a Linguistic Object, then it is in particular an Inscription.
But a Mark needs not be an Inscriptions.

However, we must take care that the "non-Inscription marks" are not separated out as complement, because following all the discussions we had in the past, there are enough marks cannot be clearly distinguished from inscriptions.

So, the scope not should admit the existence of marks in this wider sense, which are not the codified monograms etc.

isn't it?

best,

martin



On 1/17/2020 6:47 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote:

Dear all,

I’m happy with the changes (modulo one typo, below), but would propose also that there should be clarification about the inclusion of “short texts” in a class that does not inherit from Linguistic Object. It seems strange to me that Mark would include “Made by RS in 1780”, when that is clearly text with a language. That would, IMO, need to be E37 Inscription if we wanted to talk about the content / meaning, rather than just the visual appearance of some symbols. Yet the scope note for Mark makes assertions about the intent, which implies a semantic understanding of the language encoded by the symbols.

Relatedly … as Inscription is a subclass of Mark, that means that all inscriptions are also Marks, and thus all inscriptions are to indicate the creator, owner, dedications, purpose etc.  Either the  “etc” covers all intents (at which point it is a worthless clause) or there are some texts that are inscribed on objects that do not count as inscriptions.
One of the examples for Inscription is “Kilroy was here” … that does not seem to fall under the definition of Mark, given the intent clause. Similarly the “Keep off the grass” sign example is to instruct the students of Balliol to not walk on the lawn. That seems very different from a Mark … yet it is one?

Finally, I think there is a minor typo in the new sentence. I think it should read:  … as they are used to codify the marks in reference documents …
(or something like that)

Many thanks,

Rob


From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr><mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr><mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
Date: Friday, January 17, 2020 at 8:25 AM
To: crm-sig <Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr><mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Subject: [Crm-sig] ISSUE: Scope note of E37 Mark


Dear All,

There were questions about the level of abstraction of E37 Mark. Therefore I rewrite, following the relevant discussions when this class was defined. The argument was that it should directly link to the codes that are used in museum documentation for (registered) marks.

Old scope note:
Scope note:         This class comprises symbols, signs, signatures or short texts applied to instances of E24 Physical Human-Made Thing by arbitrary techniques in order to indicate the creator, owner, dedications, purpose, etc.
 This class specifically excludes features that have no semantic significance, such as scratches or tool marks. These should be documented as instances of E25 Human-Made Feature.
NEW
Scope note:         This class comprises symbols, signs, signatures or short texts applied to instances of E24 Physical Human-Made Thing by arbitrary techniques in order to indicate the creator, owner, dedications, purpose, etc. Instances of E37 Mark do not represent the actual image of a mark, but the abstract ideal, as they use to be codified in reference documents that are used in cultural documentation.
 This class specifically excludes features that have no semantic significance, such as scratches or tool marks. These should be documented as instances of E25 Human-Made Feature.



Can someone provide a relevant example from an authority document of marks?

Such as

Castagno, John. Old Masters: Signatures and Monograms, 1400–Born 1800. Lanham, MD: Scarecrow Press, 1996.

Caplan, H. H. and Bob Creps. Encyclopedia of Artists' Signatures, Symbols & Monograms: Old Masters to Modern, North American & European plus More; 25,000 Examples. Land O'Lakes, FL: Dealer's Choice Books, 1999.

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 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece



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 Dr. Martin Doerr

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 Center for Cultural Informatics

 Information Systems Laboratory
 Institute of Computer Science
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 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece

 Vox:+30(2810)391625
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------------------------------------
 Dr. Martin Doerr

 Honorary Head of the
 Center for Cultural Informatics

 Information Systems Laboratory
 Institute of Computer Science
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 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece

 Vox:+30(2810)391625
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