[Crm-sig] E21 Person, E67 Birth

athinak athinak at ics.forth.gr
Mon Sep 23 12:33:14 EEST 2019

Dear Franco,

your comments are very useful and I think you are right, maybe this is 
about a more general concept or we may miss something with the 
definition of E67 Birth(?). And what about the parents? they are 
participants in this biological event? Especially the mother who acts, 
performs intentionally, especially in cases of stillborn, the procedure 
is to start labour. I am concerned with the definition of the birth 

Thank you for the feedback


Στις 2019-09-23 11:45, Franco Niccolucci έγραψε:
> My suggestion would be to avoid being involved in ethical and
> religious discussions (when does the ‘person’ start to be such?)
> and go one step up in the entity hierarchy so:
> * instead of E21 Person use E20 Biological Object (superclass of E21)
> qualified with P2 has type
> * instead of E67 Birth use E5 Event qualified with P2 has type. In my
> opinion using instead E63 Beginning of existence (superclass of E67)
> is risky because applying the identity criteria to a fetus is
> uncertain and subject to ethical discussion, so the only safe solution
> is to record when it manifests to the world with a birth or
> miscarriage.
> Best
> Franco
> Il giorno lun 23 set 2019 alle 10:21 athinak <athinak at ics.forth.gr> ha
> scritto:
>> Dear all,
>> I am working on a project relating to historical information
>> (sources)
>> on Seafaring lives and Maritime Labour in 19th-20th century - we map
>> the
>> raw data to CIDOC CRM (or an extension of it). Historians collect
>> data
>> from various records, such as Civil Registers, which are records
>> documenting persons born or dead - basically, they register the
>> deaths.
>> So I have this case: they register as  persons the miscarriages or
>> the
>> stillborn or the abortions, and they assign attributes such as the
>> number of registration,  personal information (name,surname,etc. )of
>> the
>> parents, the place of residence (which is the parents address, of
>> course) and the sex of the aborted or still born (something they
>> knew
>> afterwards). I suppose this is a difficult ethical and biological
>> subject- my question is how would you model the miscarriage or the
>> still
>> born or the abortion? It is not exactly defined as E21 Person and if
>> it
>> is a case of still born, it can be a kind of a E67 Birth Event, but
>> if
>> it is a miscarriage, I believe it is not a birth event, it is a
>> different biological process, so what is it?
>> Any thoughts that would help?
>> thanks,
>> Athina Kritsotaki
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