[Crm-sig] begin_of_the_begin /end_of_the_end is excluded from time range?

Martin Doerr martin at ics.forth.gr
Sat May 11 11:41:18 EEST 2019


Dear All,

Sorry for answering in pieces. The "ultima ratio" for all we do are the 
queries, and not the entities. There are 9 possible questions about a 
time-span: Give me all events that (1) must have happened before event X 
started, that may have happened before event X started, that must have 
happened before event X ended, that may have... etc. If the last second 
of a day is included or not, is completely irrelevant for our purposes. 
If the end of the end of 1895 is interpreted as Jan 1, 0:0, 1896, the 
question is, how implementations will answer the above queries wrt 1896, 
and not, if the last second is in or out. I'll try in the next weeks to 
sort that out. I hope, different RDF databases will be consistent at least!

Best wishes and thank you for pointing to this issue!

On 5/8/2019 8:50 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I admit I made the rookie mistake of assuming that the P81a/b and 
> P82a/b properties followed the typical temporal pattern of an 
> inclusive beginning and an exclusive end.
>
> Or using interval notation: [begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end)
>
> Thus if you know that an event happened sometime in 1586, the begin of 
> the begin would be 1586-01-01T00:00:00 and the end of the end would be 
> 1587-01-01:00:00:00.
>
> However, 
> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/guidelines-for-using-p82a-p82b-p81a-p81b 
> seems to clarify that both are exclusive.
>
> > "P82a_begin_of_the_begin" should be instantiated as the latest point 
> in time the user is sure that the respective temporal phenomenon is 
> indeed **not yet** happening.
>
> > "P82b_end_of_the_end" should be instantiated as the earliest point in 
> time the user is sure that the respective temporal phenomenon is 
> indeed **no longer** ongoing.
>
> And thus (begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end)
>
> Meaning that the begin of the begin would need to be 
> 1585-12-31T23:59:59 such that midnight on January first is included in 
> the range, and the end of the end would be midnight of January first, 
> 1587.
>
> However, in the following paragraph it says:
>
> >  … e.g. 1971 = Jan 1 1971 0:00:00. Respectively, for “P82b_end_of_the_end” 
> the implementation should “round it up”, e.g. 1971 = Dec 31 1971 23:59:59.
>
> Which would mean that both ends were **included** in the range.
>
> And thus [begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end]
>
> So …
>
> Enquiring minds that need to implement this consistently would like to 
> know which is correct ☺
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Rob
>
>
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-- 
------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr
               
  Honorary Head of the
  Center for Cultural Informatics
  
  Information Systems Laboratory
  Institute of Computer Science
  Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
                   
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  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
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