[Crm-sig] begin_of_the_begin /end_of_the_end is excluded from time range?

Martin Doerr martin at ics.forth.gr
Fri May 10 20:54:59 EEST 2019


In other words:

If date <= 1951 internally converts to dec 31, 23:59... 1951 , Florian's 
solution works out for querying things possibly having happened in this 
range. If it converts to jan 1, 0:0, it is wrong. To be checked how all 
9 date queries work.

Best,

Martin

On 5/10/2019 8:44 PM, Martin Doerr wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Rob is right.
> If we talk about seconds, it is somehow hunting flies. But we really 
> need to test how databases interpret intervals given in dates.
> The conversion to the begin of the year,day / end of the year,day 
> should be done by the data entry templates, knowing that we 
> instantiate an ..a or ..b property, and NOT manually. We have written 
> such modules in the past for RDBMS implementations. Could be a 
> standard S/W module. Would someone volunteer to provide?
>
> Best,
>
> Martin
>
> On 5/9/2019 11:04 AM, Florian Kräutli wrote:
>> Dear Rob,
>>
>> Not having read the guidelines as attentively as you I usually 
>> implement P82a/b suggesting that the begin and end date are both 
>> included in the range.
>>
>> For example, here's the date related to a book published in 1586:
>>
>> http://sphaera.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/id/item/7e241bb5-41e3-4e08-9ab1-547a93fe6b3d/publication/date
>>
>> I think this is readable as a confidence interval of the book having 
>> been published somewhen in 1586, lacking better ways to express the 
>> level of accuracy in date datatypes.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Florian
>>
>>
>>> On 8. May 2019, at 19:50, Robert Sanderson <RSanderson at getty.edu 
>>> <mailto:RSanderson at getty.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I admit I made the rookie mistake of assuming that the P81a/b and 
>>> P82a/b properties followed the typical temporal pattern of an 
>>> inclusive beginning and an exclusive end.
>>> Or using interval notation: [begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end)
>>> Thus if you know that an event happened sometime in 1586, the begin 
>>> of the begin would be 1586-01-01T00:00:00 and the end of the end 
>>> would be 1587-01-01:00:00:00.
>>> However,http://www.cidoc-crm.org/guidelines-for-using-p82a-p82b-p81a-p81bseems 
>>> to clarify that both are exclusive.
>>> > "P82a_begin_of_the_begin" should be instantiated as the latest 
>>> point in time the user is sure that the respective temporal 
>>> phenomenon is indeed **not yet** happening.
>>> > "P82b_end_of_the_end" should be instantiated as the earliest point 
>>> in time the user is sure that the respective temporal phenomenon is 
>>> indeed **no longer** ongoing.
>>> And thus (begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end)
>>> Meaning that the begin of the begin would need to be 
>>> 1585-12-31T23:59:59 such that midnight on January first is included 
>>> in the range, and the end of the end would be midnight of January 
>>> first, 1587.
>>> However, in the following paragraph it says:
>>> >  … e.g. 1971 = Jan 1 1971 0:00:00. Respectively, for “P82b_end_of_the_end” 
>>> the implementation should “round it up”, e.g. 1971 = Dec 31 1971 
>>> 23:59:59.
>>> Which would mean that both ends were **included** in the range.
>>> And thus [begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end]
>>> So …
>>> Enquiring minds that need to implement this consistently would like 
>>> to know which is correct☺
>>> Many thanks!
>>> Rob
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> ------------------------------------
>   Dr. Martin Doerr
>                
>   Honorary Head of the
>   Center for Cultural Informatics
>   
>   Information Systems Laboratory
>   Institute of Computer Science
>   Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>                    
>   N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>   GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>   
>   Vox:+30(2810)391625
>   Email:martin at ics.forth.gr   
>   Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl  


-- 
------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr
               
  Honorary Head of the
  Center for Cultural Informatics
  
  Information Systems Laboratory
  Institute of Computer Science
  Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
                   
  N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
  
  Vox:+30(2810)391625
  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
  Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

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