[Crm-sig] begin_of_the_begin /end_of_the_end is excluded from time range?

Martin Doerr martin at ics.forth.gr
Fri May 10 20:44:19 EEST 2019

Dear All,

Rob is right.
If we talk about seconds, it is somehow hunting flies. But we really 
need to test how databases interpret intervals given in dates.
The conversion to the begin of the year,day / end of the year,day should 
be done by the data entry templates, knowing that we instantiate an ..a 
or ..b property, and NOT manually. We have written such modules in the 
past for RDBMS implementations. Could be a standard S/W module. Would 
someone volunteer to provide?



On 5/9/2019 11:04 AM, Florian Kräutli wrote:
> Dear Rob,
> Not having read the guidelines as attentively as you I usually 
> implement P82a/b suggesting that the begin and end date are both 
> included in the range.
> For example, here's the date related to a book published in 1586:
> http://sphaera.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/id/item/7e241bb5-41e3-4e08-9ab1-547a93fe6b3d/publication/date
> I think this is readable as a confidence interval of the book having 
> been published somewhen in 1586, lacking better ways to express the 
> level of accuracy in date datatypes.
> Best,
> Florian
>> On 8. May 2019, at 19:50, Robert Sanderson <RSanderson at getty.edu 
>> <mailto:RSanderson at getty.edu>> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> I admit I made the rookie mistake of assuming that the P81a/b and 
>> P82a/b properties followed the typical temporal pattern of an 
>> inclusive beginning and an exclusive end.
>> Or using interval notation: [begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end)
>> Thus if you know that an event happened sometime in 1586, the begin 
>> of the begin would be 1586-01-01T00:00:00 and the end of the end 
>> would be 1587-01-01:00:00:00.
>> However,http://www.cidoc-crm.org/guidelines-for-using-p82a-p82b-p81a-p81bseems 
>> to clarify that both are exclusive.
>> > "P82a_begin_of_the_begin" should be instantiated as the latest point 
>> in time the user is sure that the respective temporal phenomenon is 
>> indeed **not yet** happening.
>> > "P82b_end_of_the_end" should be instantiated as the earliest point 
>> in time the user is sure that the respective temporal phenomenon is 
>> indeed **no longer** ongoing.
>> And thus (begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end)
>> Meaning that the begin of the begin would need to be 
>> 1585-12-31T23:59:59 such that midnight on January first is included 
>> in the range, and the end of the end would be midnight of January 
>> first, 1587.
>> However, in the following paragraph it says:
>> >  … e.g. 1971 = Jan 1 1971 0:00:00. Respectively, for “P82b_end_of_the_end” the 
>> implementation should “round it up”, e.g. 1971 = Dec 31 1971 23:59:59.
>> Which would mean that both ends were **included** in the range.
>> And thus [begin_of_the_begin, end_of_the_end]
>> So …
>> Enquiring minds that need to implement this consistently would like 
>> to know which is correct☺
>> Many thanks!
>> Rob
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  Dr. Martin Doerr
  Honorary Head of the
  Center for Cultural Informatics
  Information Systems Laboratory
  Institute of Computer Science
  Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
  N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
  Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

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