[Crm-sig] Space time volumes

Athanasios Velios a.velios at arts.ac.uk
Thu Mar 21 18:12:14 EET 2019


A couple of comments from me:

>> 1) which E2 is not an E4, even in a broad sense?

I think the question here are whether "E3 Condition State" is the same
as "E4 Period" and if "P5 and P9 consists of" are similar transitive
properties. From a conservation point of view I was never comfortable
with "E3" and I would be happy to model condition as "E4 Period"
replacing "P44 has condition" with "P8 took place on or within". And
maybe having E3 as a subclass of E4.

>> 2) which E94 (relevant, and not just purely abstract) is not also an E4?

E92 STV also includes "E18 Physical Thing" but only for convenience as
the scope note of E18 mentions:

"This model combines two quite different kinds of substance: an instance
of E18 Physical Thing is matter while a spacetime volume is an
aggregation of points in spacetime. However, the real spatiotemporal
extent of an instance of E18 Physical Thing is regarded to be unique to
it, due to all its details and fuzziness; its identity and existence
depends uniquely on the identity of the instance of E18 Physical Thing.
Therefore this multiple inheritance is unambiguous and effective and
furthermore corresponds to the intuitions of natural language."

"E18 Physical Thing" is not "E92 STV" so the IsA hierarchy is wrong at
this point. So moving "E18 Physical Thing" higher and merging E2, E3,
E92 and E4 could be one way of looking at it (and waiting for Martin and
Steve to wake me up).

All the best,

Thanasis

>> 3) Does the scope note of E94 allow the existence of some instances
>> that are also E4, as implied by the subclass condition and described
>> in Dan’s examples?
>> 4) What is the difference between P4/P7 and P160/P162?
>> My answers are in the negative for all of the above, but I may be wrong.
>> I am not sure that E94 should end in the waste basket; perhaps it
>> should go in the recycle bin and be repurposed as an abstract concept
>> like Time-span, Place and Dimension, at the same time freeing E4 from
>> dependence from it: E4 would occupy some E94, not be it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Franco
>>
>> Il giorno gio 21 mar 2019 alle 08:30 Francesco Beretta
>> <francesco.beretta at cnrs.fr <mailto:francesco.beretta at cnrs.fr>> ha scritto:
>>
>>     Dear Dan, Franco, all,
>>
>>
>>     in a nutshell:
>>
>>
>>     Period – E4
>>
>>     P4 has time-span E52 Time-Span
>>
>>     P7 took place at E53 Place
>>
>>
>>     Spacetime Volume – E92
>>
>>     P160 has temporal projection E52 Time-Span
>>
>>     P161 has spatial projection E53 Place
>>
>>
>>     Period – E4 (phenomenal) Pxx has projection in Spacetime Volume –
>>     E92 (‘region’)
>>
>>
>>     If we keep Spacetime Volume – E92 in the model we should get rid
>>     of /P4 has time-span/ and /P7 took place/ at because they are
>>     redundant with /P160 has temporal projection/and /P161 has spatial
>>     projection/, or apply the logical mechanism proposed by Martin
>>     which is under discussion.
>>
>>
>>     If we get rid of E92 (and properties) and clearly explain E4 is a
>>     spacetime volume /by definition/, with temporal and spatial
>>     projection (P4/P7), then the issue seems to be solved.
>>
>>
>>     E4 being a subclass of E92 is in my opinion (and other’s also as
>>     we know) inconsistent with the traditional modelling method, and
>>     also misleading.
>>
>>
>>     If E4 can be merged with E2 (E2 would always have a projection in
>>     space, at least virtually, be this my brain the ‘place’ for my
>>     belief), then E2 is a STV with projection in time and space.
>>
>>
>>     This synthesis may be too simple not to be simplistic and I miss
>>     some crucial point ?
>>
>>
>>     All the best
>>
>>     Francesco
>>
>>
>>
>>     Le 21.03.19 à 00:05, Franco Niccolucci a écrit :
>>>     (Dan, resist, the cavalry is arriving, do you hear the trumpets? )
>>>
>>>     Sorry, that’s not convincing.
>>>
>>>     E4 Period is a subclass of E92 Spacetime Volume, so every E4 is
>>>     also an E92. There may theoretically be some E92 that are not E4,
>>>     i.e. abstract subsets of R4 (sorry my email app does not allow
>>>     superscrpits, R4 means the 4-dimensional space of real numbers x,
>>>     y, z, t)
>>>
>>>     So Dan’s “Byzantine period” is rightfully also a Spacetime
>>>     Volume, besides obviously being an E4 Period; same as it is an
>>>     E1, the mother of all concepts. If it does not fit with the E92
>>>     scope note, it is the latter that is misspelled and wrong, not
>>>     Dan. Scope notes cannot override isA.
>>>
>>>     Also, since the domain of P160 & 161 is E92, they can be applied
>>>     also to E4. Perhaps this makes P7 superfluous, but that’s another
>>>     story.
>>>
>>>     In sum there is nothing “wrong” in Dan’s usage of E92 and the
>>>     related properties.
>>>
>>>     I would also add that I find difficult to describe an E92 that is
>>>     not an E4, besides artificial examples.
>>>
>>>     (Dan, nasty Indians are running away in debacle, you are safe...)
>>>
>>>     Finally, let me express some nightly gut feeling.
>>>     I am not comfortable with the scope note of E2: “This class
>>>     comprises all phenomena, such as the instances of E4 Periods, E5
>>>     Events and states, which happen over a limited extent in time”.
>>>     If these phenomena are happening, they happen somewhere, do you
>>>     know anything happening nowhere? so I would feel better by adding
>>>     at the end of this sentence “in time AND SPACE”. Actually, all
>>>     the examples of E2 mentioned in its scope note happen somewhere:
>>>     the Bronze Age happened in a region (Europe, the Levant, etc. not
>>>     in America); the Lisbon earthquake happend in Lisbon; the
>>>     Peterhof Palace in ruins happened in Northern Russia. My gut
>>>     feeling is that the scope notes of E2 and perhaps E4 were written
>>>     before achieving the concept of E92, so they might be
>>>     inconsistent or superfluous nowadays. My moonlight feeeling is
>>>     that all temporal things are subclasses of E92; but this could be
>>>     the effect of sad Brussels loneliness, where I am now, so don’t
>>>     take it too seriously.
>>>
>>>     Best
>>>
>>>     Franco
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Il giorno mer 20 mar 2019 alle 15:04 Dan Matei <Dan at cimec.ro
>>>     <mailto:Dan at cimec.ro>> ha scritto:
>>>
>>>         Thanks Christian-Emil and Martin.
>>>
>>>         I will use then E4 and P7 (regretfully :-)
>>>
>>>         My impression is that the combination E92, P160 & P161 is a
>>>         more elegant solution. But, rules are
>>>         rules...
>>>
>>>         Best,
>>>
>>>         EDan
>>>
>>>         E2 and -----Original Message-----
>>>         From: Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr
>>>         <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>
>>>         Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:13:52 +0200
>>>
>>>         > As Christian-Emil also pointed out, this is a wrong use of E92.
>>>         >
>>>         > The scope note says: "This class comprises 4 dimensional
>>>         point sets
>>>         > (volumes) in physical spacetime....".
>>>         >
>>>         > Do you regard that what makes up the identity and substance
>>>         of the
>>>         > Byzantine Period is to be a set of points?
>>>         >
>>>         > best,
>>>         >
>>>         > Martin
>>>         >
>>>         > On 3/19/2019 10:27 AM, Dan Matei wrote:
>>>         > > Hi fiends,
>>>         > >
>>>         > > On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 at 19:20, Martin Doerr
>>>         <martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>>>         > >
>>>         > >> Nevertheless, we used the term informally in the CRM. We
>>>         could name E92 as "abstract".
>>>         > > For me, some E92 are not abstract. E.g. I instantiate
>>>         "Byzantine
>>>         > > Period" (it is somwhat difficult to place it in South
>>>         America :-) :
>>>         > >
>>>         > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <isA> <crm:E92_Spacetime_Volume>
>>>         > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P160_has_temporal_projection>
>>>         <330-1700>
>>>         > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P161_has_spatial_projection>
>>>         <#EsternEurope>
>>>         > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P161_has_spatial_projection>
>>>         <#Levant>
>>>         > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P161_has_spatial_projection>
>>>         <#NorthAfrica>
>>>         > >
>>>         > > Also:
>>>         > >
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge1> <isA> <crm:E92_Spacetime_Volume>
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge1> <crm:P2 has_type> <#BronzeAge-Concept>
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge1> <crm:P160_has_temporal_projection> <p?1>
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge1><crm:P161_has_spatial_projection>
>>>         <#JapaneseIslands>
>>>         > >
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge2> <isA> <crm:E92_Spacetime_Volume>
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge2> <crm:P2 has_type> <#BronzeAge-Concept>
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge2> <crm:P160_has_temporal_projection> <p?2>
>>>         > > <#BronzeAge2><crm:P161_has_spatial_projection> <#Scandinavia>
>>>         > >
>>>         > > Should I worry ?
>>>         > >
>>>         > > Dan
>>>
>>>
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