[Crm-sig] Space time volumes

Francesco Beretta francesco.beretta at cnrs.fr
Thu Mar 21 09:23:04 EET 2019


Dear Dan, Franco, all,


in a nutshell:


Period – E4

P4 has time-span E52 Time-Span

P7 took place at E53 Place


Spacetime Volume – E92

P160 has temporal projection E52 Time-Span

P161 has spatial projection E53 Place


Period – E4 (phenomenal) Pxx has projection in Spacetime Volume – E92 
(‘region’)


If we keep Spacetime Volume – E92 in the model we should get rid of /P4 
has time-span/ and /P7 took place/ at because they are redundant with 
/P160 has temporal projection/and /P161 has spatial projection/, or 
apply the logical mechanism proposed by Martin which is under discussion.


If we get rid of E92 (and properties) and clearly explain E4 is a 
spacetime volume /by definition/, with temporal and spatial projection 
(P4/P7), then the issue seems to be solved.


E4 being a subclass of E92 is in my opinion (and other’s also as we 
know) inconsistent with the traditional modelling method, and also 
misleading.


If E4 can be merged with E2 (E2 would always have a projection in space, 
at least virtually, be this my brain the ‘place’ for my belief), then E2 
is a STV with projection in time and space.


This synthesis may be too simple not to be simplistic and I miss some 
crucial point ?


All the best

Francesco



Le 21.03.19 à 00:05, Franco Niccolucci a écrit :
> (Dan, resist, the cavalry is arriving, do you hear the trumpets? )
>
> Sorry, that’s not convincing.
>
> E4 Period is a subclass of E92 Spacetime Volume, so every E4 is also 
> an E92. There may theoretically be some E92 that are not E4, i.e. 
> abstract subsets of R4 (sorry my email app does not allow 
> superscrpits, R4 means the 4-dimensional space of real numbers x, y, z, t)
>
> So Dan’s “Byzantine period” is rightfully also a Spacetime Volume, 
> besides obviously being an E4 Period; same as it is an E1, the mother 
> of all concepts. If it does not fit with the E92 scope note, it is the 
> latter that is misspelled and wrong, not Dan. Scope notes cannot 
> override isA.
>
> Also, since the domain of P160 & 161 is E92, they can be applied also 
> to E4. Perhaps this makes P7 superfluous, but that’s another story.
>
> In sum there is nothing “wrong” in Dan’s usage of E92 and the related 
> properties.
>
> I would also add that I find difficult to describe an E92 that is not 
> an E4, besides artificial examples.
>
> (Dan, nasty Indians are running away in debacle, you are safe...)
>
> Finally, let me express some nightly gut feeling.
> I am not comfortable with the scope note of E2: “This class comprises 
> all phenomena, such as the instances of E4 Periods, E5 Events and 
> states, which happen over a limited extent in time”. If these 
> phenomena are happening, they happen somewhere, do you know anything 
> happening nowhere? so I would feel better by adding at the end of this 
> sentence “in time AND SPACE”. Actually, all the examples of E2 
> mentioned in its scope note happen somewhere: the Bronze Age happened 
> in a region (Europe, the Levant, etc. not in America); the Lisbon 
> earthquake happend in Lisbon; the Peterhof Palace in ruins happened in 
> Northern Russia.  My gut feeling is that the scope notes of E2 and 
> perhaps E4 were written before achieving the concept of E92, so they 
> might be inconsistent or superfluous nowadays. My moonlight feeeling 
> is that all temporal things are subclasses of E92; but this could be 
> the effect of sad Brussels loneliness, where I am now, so don’t take 
> it too seriously.
>
> Best
>
> Franco
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno mer 20 mar 2019 alle 15:04 Dan Matei <Dan at cimec.ro 
> <mailto:Dan at cimec.ro>> ha scritto:
>
>     Thanks Christian-Emil and Martin.
>
>     I will use then E4 and P7 (regretfully :-)
>
>     My impression is that the combination E92, P160 & P161 is a more
>     elegant solution. But, rules are
>     rules...
>
>     Best,
>
>     EDan
>
>     E2 and -----Original Message-----
>     From: Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>
>     Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:13:52 +0200
>
>     > As Christian-Emil also pointed out, this is a wrong use of E92.
>     >
>     > The scope note says: "This class comprises 4 dimensional point sets
>     > (volumes) in physical spacetime....".
>     >
>     > Do you regard that what makes up the identity and substance of the
>     > Byzantine Period is to be a set of points?
>     >
>     > best,
>     >
>     > Martin
>     >
>     > On 3/19/2019 10:27 AM, Dan Matei wrote:
>     > > Hi fiends,
>     > >
>     > > On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 at 19:20, Martin Doerr
>     <martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>     > >
>     > >> Nevertheless, we used the term informally in the CRM. We
>     could name E92 as "abstract".
>     > > For me, some E92 are not abstract. E.g. I instantiate "Byzantine
>     > > Period" (it is somwhat difficult to place it in South America
>     :-) :
>     > >
>     > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <isA> <crm:E92_Spacetime_Volume>
>     > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P160_has_temporal_projection> <330-1700>
>     > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P161_has_spatial_projection>
>     <#EsternEurope>
>     > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P161_has_spatial_projection> <#Levant>
>     > > <#ByzantinePeriod> <crm:P161_has_spatial_projection>
>     <#NorthAfrica>
>     > >
>     > > Also:
>     > >
>     > > <#BronzeAge1> <isA> <crm:E92_Spacetime_Volume>
>     > > <#BronzeAge1> <crm:P2 has_type> <#BronzeAge-Concept>
>     > > <#BronzeAge1> <crm:P160_has_temporal_projection> <p?1>
>     > > <#BronzeAge1><crm:P161_has_spatial_projection> <#JapaneseIslands>
>     > >
>     > > <#BronzeAge2> <isA> <crm:E92_Spacetime_Volume>
>     > > <#BronzeAge2> <crm:P2 has_type> <#BronzeAge-Concept>
>     > > <#BronzeAge2> <crm:P160_has_temporal_projection> <p?2>
>     > > <#BronzeAge2><crm:P161_has_spatial_projection> <#Scandinavia>
>     > >
>     > > Should I worry ?
>     > >
>     > > Dan
>
>
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