[Crm-sig] Issue 277 "artist"

Christian-Emil Smith Ore c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no
Wed Mar 20 15:10:44 EET 2019


​​Dear all,


A comment  to the artist discussion:


It has been a discussion in linguistics about mental types vs all information is in the text/utterance. My impression is that most scholars agree that agreed types are used by humans in language communication. This does not imply that all such types exist independently of the language(s) in question.


 It is well known form bilingual lexicography that the concepts (types) in two languages are not in a 1-1 correspondence. A simple example is the idea that a dictionary explaining language A for users of language B cannot be reversed to a dictionary for A users to understand language B, similarly for dictionaries design to support production.


AAT has the ambition to be universal in the sense that the concept identifiers in the English original is kept in the German, French, Dutch versions. This is not problematic for higher level concepts. However, it is my impression that as closer a term is to an everyday word in a language, the more problematic it is. Artist is an example. In Norwegian Art (kunst) and Artist (kunstner) are usually used about fine arts. In Russian художник (khudozhnik) has a much wider meaning, and also including craftsman and designer.


"Villa" is another example.


In AAT:

Hierarchical Position:

                Objects Facet

                .... Built Environment (hierarchy name) (G)

                …

                ............................................ rural houses (G)

                ............................................... country houses (G)

                .................................................... villas (G)







In the Swedish Rikstermbanken (term bank), we find the following definition  for villa


villa  sv

DEFINITION: friliggande småhus [free standing (small) dwelling house]


In Sweden the definintion of “free standing” in this case is «not less than 4 meter from any other house and a “småhus” will typically have two floors and 100-200 square meters and is found in suburbs and very fare from Villa di Medici.


All the concepts (including artist) mentioned above can be modelled as instances of E55 but in most cases different instances as the denotations/extensions are different



​

Best,

Christian-Emil

________________________________
From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr>
Sent: 09 March 2019 19:40
To: Nicola Carboni
Cc: crm-sig
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 277 "artist"

On 3/9/2019 11:22 AM, Nicola Carboni wrote:
Dear Martin,

Nevertheless I like the "artist" example, because it is a vague attribution, but useful. Exactly the things we prefer to put in E55 Type.
I am intrigued by the different ways someone may be identified as artist. It reminds me the discourse about "my true mother" of George Lakoff in "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things”. The question is of course, if we could find an ontology as example which makes some objective ontological distinctions, such as people having studied fine arts, or being organized in a community of artists, or make a living by producing art. For reasoning with CRM classes, an interesting question is, if we can infer an artist from her products, or e.g., awards, without classifying the person.

That is indeed a tricky definition, and I agree that should not rely on an ontological commitment. In my opinion it should be dealt with a set of rules formalised by each institution depending on their view/culture reflect the conceptualisation of Artist.

From a functional perspective, N3 is in my opinion the best way to go. A brief example would be:

{?X crm:P14_performed ?Y . ?Y crm:p2_has_type "exhibition".}  => {?X a ex:Artist.} .

it is pretty simple way to assign the class Artist to a person on the base of a set of rules. Could that work?

Yes. I believe non-IT experts could best handle a graphical tool, on which deduction paths could be highlighted.

Even the "?Y.?Y" above is distracting.

The only problem I see is that current automatic RDFS graphical visualizations are cluttered with meaninglessly huge URIs and bad layout, huge arcs circling around.

May be someone knows a good intuitive tool?

Cheers,

Martin

Best,

Nicola







On 8 Mar 2019, at 19:36, Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr<mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:

On 3/7/2019 11:02 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote:

Martin, all,



One thing to note about the dbpedia ontology is that it is derived from the infobox sections of Wikipedia, mostly automatically.

So this could be a very artificial alignment, and I would not put too much emphasis on it as a precedent.
Yes, I see.

Nevertheless I like the "artist" example, because it is a vague attribution, but useful. Exactly the things we prefer to put in E55 Type.
I am intrigued by the different ways someone may be identified as artist. It reminds me the discourse about "my true mother" of George Lakoff in "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things". The question is of course, if we could find an ontology as example which makes some objective ontological distinctions, such as people having studied fine arts, or being organized in a community of artists, or make a living by producing art.
For reasoning with CRM classes, an interesting question is, if we can infer an artist from her products, or e.g., awards, without classifying the person.
Best,
Martin





Rob

From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr><mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr><mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
Date: Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM
To: crm-sig <Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr><mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Subject: [Crm-sig] Issue 277 "artist"


Dear All,

For the test about types there was a question in which context a class "Artist" may have been defined. I found one in dbpedia:

http://dbpedia.org/ontology/Artist

I am not sure how to refer to this in our text. One may point to the utility of replacing classes with types for the mapping.

Reading the properties of this artist definition carefully, one may ask which of those are actually be restricted to artists, and which "make artists" out of a person: the awards. The latter is obviously common reasoning, but we would not populate the CRM with such secondary concepts for reasons of maintaining a core.

Best,



martin

--

------------------------------------

 Dr. Martin Doerr



 Honorary Head of the

 Center for Cultural Informatics



 Information Systems Laboratory

 Institute of Computer Science

 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)



 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,

 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece



 Vox:+30(2810)391625

 Email: martin at ics.forth.gr<mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>

 Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl


--
------------------------------------
 Dr. Martin Doerr

 Honorary Head of the
 Center for Cultural Informatics

 Information Systems Laboratory
 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)

 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece

 Vox:+30(2810)391625
 Email: martin at ics.forth.gr<mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
 Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl


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--
------------------------------------
 Dr. Martin Doerr

 Honorary Head of the
 Center for Cultural Informatics

 Information Systems Laboratory
 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)

 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece

 Vox:+30(2810)391625
 Email: martin at ics.forth.gr<mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
 Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

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