[Crm-sig] New Issue: Pxxx holds or supports

Robert Sanderson RSanderson at getty.edu
Wed Jul 17 22:57:24 EEST 2019

Very happy to remove the fuzzy “similar to”, good catch!

I also prefer it being a super-property of P56. It’s more general than just the bearing of features. Also, the range being limited to Physical Object, rather than Physical Thing would rule out not only Features (E25, E26, E27 and below), but also the other subclass of E24 Physical Human-Made which includes at least E78 Curated Holding. While I don’t use E78, I think it would be difficult to explain why an E78 can’t be held in the space provided by a room in a building.  And definitely we should not exclude components – chessmen can clearly be in a box!

Thanks Martin!


From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr>
Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 12:13 PM
To: "crm-sig at ics.forth.gr" <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Pxxx holds or supports

Dear All,

I support this issue.

My only concern is the following phrase: " This property is similar to P56 bears feature (is found on),". To my opinion, there must not be "similar" properties in the CRM. Whatever the distinction, it must be explicit and decidable.

I suggest two different interpretations: The new property being superproperty of P56 (preferred) or
definitely distinct. In the latter case, the range should be Physical Object.

A confusion with P46 should not occur, because this is about location. I would not exclude components from the new property, such as a chessman being in a box, whereas a set of chessman without a box would be not within anything.



On 7/12/2019 9:32 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote:

Dear all,

Following from the discussion about how to represent objects that contain or otherwise provide a location for other objects, without necessarily instantiating a Place for them to be located at, I would like to propose a new property for CRM Base, following the pattern of P8 took place on or within.  Martin suggested “is located on or within” however this is the label of the inverse of P59 has section, which is used as part of the full path. To have both properties with the same label would be incredibly confusing!

As a first attempt at a definition, please see below.


Pxxx holds or supports (is held or supported by)

Domain: E18 Physical Thing
Range: E18 Physical Thing
Quantification: many to many

Scope Note:

This property relates one E18 Physical Thing which acts as a container or support, such as a shelf, for another E18 Physical Thing.  Pxxx holds or supports is a shortcut of the more fully developed path from the domain E18 Physical Thing through P59 has section, E53 Place, P53i is former or current location of, to the range E18 Physical Thing.  This property is similar to P56 bears feature (is found on), except that the range resource can be any Physical Thing rather than only a Physical Feature, and it is not a sub property of P46 is composed of, as the held or supported object is not a component of the container or support.

This property can be used to avoid explicitly instantiating the E53 Place which is defined by a Physical Thing, especially when the only intended use of that Physical Thing is to act as a container or surface for the storage of other Physical Things. The place’s existence is defined by the existence of the container or surface, and will go out of existence at the same time as the Destruction of the container or surface. As such, there are very few situations in which the identity of the place needs to be distinguished from the defining physical thing.

  ·         The archival folder (E22) “6” _holds or supports_ the piece of paper (E22) carrying the text of a letter from Alloway to Sleigh
  ·         The artist’s materials box (E22) labeled “VG6” _holds or supports_ Van Gogh’s paintbrush 23 (E22)
  ·         The storage box “VG” (E22)  _holds or supports_ the artist’s materials box (E22) labeled “VG6”
  ·         The bronze coin bank “72.AC.99” (E22) _holds or supports_ silver coin “72.AC.99-1” (E22)
  ·         The bookshelf “GRI-708.1” (E22) _holds or supports_ the book (E22) “Catalog of Paintings in the J. Paul Getty Museum”


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 Dr. Martin Doerr

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