[Crm-sig] New Issue: Re-label E22, E25, E71 to remove "Man-"

melanie.roche at bnf.fr melanie.roche at bnf.fr
Tue Apr 23 12:56:36 EEST 2019

Dear all,

I strongly support Robert's suggestion, and thank him for making it. 

To answer Martin, I do believe language awareness makes a difference in 
the real-world situation of men and women. And while it may be a 
distraction from the work (I totally get that inclusivity is not the point 
of the model), and appear as a politically correct and fashionable trend, 
it also reflects on how other communities perceive us. Lately I have heard 
a lot of discussion on how to expand the CIDOC-CRM community, and 
especially how to extend it to younger people. Making the model more 
inclusive would be, in my opinion, a good first step in that direction.

Personally I would rather lean towards "human-made" than simply "made". 
While "human-made object" is indeed quite a mouthful, "made object" sounds 
weird and reminds me of "made men" and wiseguys (but maybe I've been 
watching The Deuce too much). Anyway, either "human-made object" or "made 
object" sound better than "man-made object". 



P.S. : thank you to all of you who have sent their wishes for Notre-Dame, 
I was very touched by the worldwide emotion that has surged in the wake of 
the fire. Rest assured that the old lady will be waiting for you in June 
and that she is still stunning, even without a rooftop. :)

De :    "Robert Sanderson" <RSanderson at getty.edu>
A :     "crm-sig at ics.forth.gr" <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Date :  16/04/2019 20:26
Objet : Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Re-label E22, E25, E71 to remove "Man-"
Envoyé par :    "Crm-sig" <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>

Dear all,
It seems like there is general (if not unanimous) agreement around 
“Human-Made” as a replacement for “Man-Made”?
Can we progress to a vote, or does this need to be discussed in person in 
(I am, like everyone, horrified by the damage to (but not Destruction of) 
Notre Dame in the fire last night and look forward laying flowers at the 
grand lady’s doorstep in June!)
From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Florian Kräutli 
<fkraeutli at mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de>
Date: Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 12:49 AM
To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore <c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no>, 
"crm-sig at ics.forth.gr" <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Re-label E22, E25, E71 to remove "Man-"
I would lean slightly in the direction of human-made. I think it helps to 
emphasise the human activity involved. As Jane mentioned, animals can make 
things to. 
If I remember correctly I already used the term ‘Human-Made Object’ to 
talk about E22 in this webinar (

From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Christian-Emil 
Smith Ore <c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no>
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2019 9:26 AM
To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Re-label E22, E25, E71 to remove "Man-" 
Dear all,
Martin's reflections are good. 
An extra comment: As we all know language use reflect social and power 
structures.  It is my view that one should try to make the language 
(English) in this case as gender neutral as possible. In many languages 
gender neutrality is difficult to obtain, perhaps not possible since it is 
integrated in the inflection morphology (e.g. Russian). 
However, there is no reason to make CRM labels gender specific except for 
mother and father.  In English ‘man’ can be used in the meaning ‘humanity’ 
and unspecified persons (as far as I understand it) which is not very good 
for gender equality.  Maybe one should try to replace ‘man’ by ‘human’. 
This is a big task, and perhaps not possible in many groups (like the one 
represented by J R-M). In the group of CRM users it should not be 
The question is:  Should we replace ‘man-made’ by ‘human-made’, or by 
‘made’.  ‘human-made’ is already in use (‘The planet's average surface 
temperature has risen about 1.62 degrees Fahrenheit (0.9 degrees Celsius) 
since the late 19th century, a change driven largely by increased carbon 
dioxide and other human-made emissions into the atmosphere’ NASA) and 
stress the fact that humans are involved. Rob  mentioned that ‘human made’ 
is quite a mouthful. Well, it will add one syllable and two letters which 
is not very much.​

From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Martin Doerr 
<martin at ics.forth.gr>
Sent: 12 April 2019 19:47
To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Re-label E22, E25, E71 to remove "Man-" 
Dear All,
I would like to stay neutral in this issue. Personally, I do not believe 
that changing language is the way to make sure we respect men and women 
equally and give them equal chances, and it gives me a taste of 
distracting from what should be discussed. Therefore I am not happy about 
I have the impression that even the etymology given in wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_(word) is not complete. As a German 
speaker, I distinguish between "Mann" (male) and "Mensch" (human), and I 
suspect that the English "man" is actually a derivative of both, rendering 
it a homonym.  Homonymity would not imply a bias.
In Italian, French, Spanish the Latin term "vir" for adult male actually 
got lost in favor of derivatives of "homo" (human). Would be interesting 
to learn if this was actually connected with an increasing male domination 
or not, or if being "vir" became unimportant.
Man-Made appeared to me a good, established term, and we prefer 
established terms.
In German, we rendered it as "artificial object".
Asian languages such as Chinese and Japanese do not have default gender at 
all. Much better.
Anyway, if some people think it makes a difference...
On 4/12/2019 7:38 AM, Robert Sanderson wrote:
Dear all,
On behalf of the Linked Art consortium, I would like to propose that the 
labels for E22 Man-Made Object, E25 Man-Made Feature and E71 Man-Made 
Thing be changed to drop the unnecessarily gendered “Man-“.  In this day 
and age, I think we should recognize that inclusion and diversity are core 
features of community acceptance, and that including gender-biased 
language is alienating.
Thus the proposal is: E22’s label should be changed to Made Object, E25 
changed to Made Feature and E71 changed to Made Thing. 
The “human” nature of the agent that does the making is explicit in the 
ontology, in that only humans or groups there-of can be Actors and carry 
out Productions or Creations, so there is no ambiguity about non-humans 
making these.
This issue was discussed at length, and has been open in our profile’s 
tracker for 12 months now. We would greatly prefer that it be solved by 
changing the labels in the documentation, and thereby in the RDFS, rather 
than other RDF specific approaches such as minting new terms and using 
owl:sameAs to assert equality, or rebranding only in the JSON-LD 
serialization but persisting in other serializations.  The change is 
consistent, reduces the length of the class names, and is an easy 
substitution. The comprehensibility of the label is still the same. Given 
the renaming of Collection to Curated Holding, migration of existing data 
has the same solution - just substitute the labels.
As a second choice, if the above is not acceptable, we propose to instead 
replace “Man-“ with “Human-“ … only two additional characters, but a bit 
more of a mouthful.
Many thanks for your engagement with this issue!
_______________________________________________Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig at ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
-- ------------------------------------ Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of 
the Center for Cultural Informatics  Information Systems Laboratory 
Institute of Computer Science              Foundation for Research and 
Technology - Hellas (FORTH)                      N.Plastira 100, Vassilika 
Vouton,          GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece   Vox:+30(2810)391625 
Email: martin at ics.forth.gr   Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl 
Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr

Expositions  Manuscrits de l’extrême  – jusqu'au 7 juillet 2019 | François-Mitterrand 
et  Le Monde en sphères  – jusqu'au 21 juillet 2019 | François-Mitterrand Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/pipermail/crm-sig/attachments/20190423/e6a57aeb/attachment-0001.html>

More information about the Crm-sig mailing list