[Crm-sig] Parent of F4 Manifestation Singleton

Martin Doerr martin at ics.forth.gr
Tue Sep 18 19:33:09 EEST 2018


Dear Oeyvind,

Well, I expressed just a more theoretical thought. There is a question 
of identity conditions: Is the product providing the identity to the 
activity, or the activity to the product? If the products are more 
loosely coupled such as multiple recordings, reviews etc., obviously the 
common identity they refer to is the activity experienced. If under my 
hands happens to be the keyboard of my laptop, and I package the product 
adequately, we tend to identify my writing by the produced text. 
Currently, neither CRM nor FRBR gives a good answer to a common view 
explaining the stages in between.

I consider here a more general concept of Expression than performance. I 
am not concerned if painting is performing, but that painting is an 
externalization of mental things as is theatre, singing and writing. I 
argue that causal to any art form and literature is first the 
brain-to-action process. This may or may not have a "self-contained 
form" and may or may not end up in persistent "self-contained" forms. 
Depending on the latter, I would like to be able to specialize down from 
the same overarching concept, let's call it "externalization", better 
than "expression" or "performance", which ultimately must comprise all 
signals externalized that may ever appear or are reflected in the 
products or by products or observations. I do not think that could be 
disputed.

When someone is writing ever on an unfinished work, such as 
Saint-Exupery's Citadelle, we may question if the unity and identity of 
action is better than the unity of the text...

I am just thinking if we may need at some time such a general concept, a 
nd what its limitations would be.

Cheers,

Martin


On 9/18/2018 3:19 PM, Øyvind Eide wrote:
> Well, performances are usually not part of library or museum 
> collections. The theatre museums I have worked with collect artefacts, 
> texts, stage models etc. etc. but not performances. They do collect 
> traces of performances though: reviews, programmes, posters, stage 
> drawings, costumes, video recordings etc.
>
> But once an information system is created the performances find their 
> natural place there. As they do in CRM and FRBR.
>
> Another thing is the performative aspects of art forms traditionally 
> not seen as performative, such as literature. As far as I know this is 
> still a disputed area.
>
> All the best,
>
> Øyvind
>
>> Am 18.09.2018 um 11:54 schrieb Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr 
>> <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>:
>>
>> Dear George,
>>
>> How nice!
>>
>> I believe the concept of "Expression" as something permanent, i.e., 
>> the FRBR concept of it, actually confuses the problem. "Expression" 
>> is to my understanding a process, an activity, and only in a second 
>> meaning the product. I do not see any difference to lots of best 
>> singers of the world performing in their bath rooms.
>>
>> What is the point in knowing the absolutely greatest work of art? A 
>> Zen master was asked what the most valuable thing in the world is. He 
>> answered: the head of a dead cat. Why? because nobody would give a 
>> price for it...;-)
>>
>> We have discussed the "Expression Creation", the actually genuine 
>> Expression, as a process of externalization, and attempt to 
>> communicate something.  I'd say  things become culturally relevant by 
>> their social impact, and that is what we document.
>>
>> If we would generalize over that, the result of an "Expression 
>> Creation" would be anything left on another carrier, be it in the 
>> heart of an audience, or on paper, or any other form. If the identity 
>> condition of such an Expression Creation is in the intention, 
>> carriers lost in the process as in your example would qualify. On the 
>> other side, if someone is eavesdropping on the bathroom song, we may 
>> even then talk of an Expression, or? Then, the "creation" part is 
>> more specific, and may be incidental or accidentally flawed.
>>
>> Anyway, I think this view would greatly simplify things.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/17/2018 10:49 PM, George Bruseker wrote:
>>> I had this reference in mind, which I’ve been looking for for a long 
>>> time:
>>>
>>> https://books.google.gr/books?id=8Nbqn-7RKpYC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=woolfe+artist+napkin+water+painted+word&source=bl&ots=NLFB8BL-w9&sig=7HX0xB1GSR_l9D6TgsSKRCFoHyc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicu8WI58LdAhURaVAKHWZKBmoQ6AEwFXoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=woolfe%20artist%20napkin%20water%20painted%20word&f=false
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dr. George Bruseker
>>> R & D Engineer
>>>
>>> Centre for Cultural Informatics
>>> Institute of Computer Science
>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>> Science and Technology Park of Crete
>>> Vassilika Vouton, P.O.Box 1385, GR-711 10 Heraklion, Crete, Greece
>>>
>>> Tel.: +30 2810 391619   Fax: +30 2810 391638 E-mail: 
>>> bruseker at ics.forth.gr <mailto:bruseker at ics.forth.gr>
>>> URL: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>
>>>> On Sep 17, 2018, at 9:10 PM, Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr 
>>>> <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 9/16/2018 3:49 PM, George Bruseker wrote:
>>>>> Hi Thanasis,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes I would take it that that was the intention of the authors. 
>>>>> Scribbling your master piece in water on the back of a torn napkin 
>>>>> or so. So I would agree that the language should probably change 
>>>>> to reflect that.
>>>> Indeed, there are lots of inscriptions, texts written in notebooks 
>>>> etc. Need not be so exotic. Probably many manuscripts are not 
>>>> exclusive to one carrier.
>>>>
>>>> But we have to check if in LRMoo it is already obsolete.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> George
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Dr. George Bruseker
>>>>> R & D Engineer
>>>>>
>>>>> Centre for Cultural Informatics
>>>>> Institute of Computer Science
>>>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>>>> Science and Technology Park of Crete
>>>>> Vassilika Vouton, P.O.Box 1385, GR-711 10 Heraklion, Crete, Greece
>>>>>
>>>>> Tel.: +30 2810 391619   Fax: +30 2810 391638 E-mail: 
>>>>> bruseker at ics.forth.gr <mailto:bruseker at ics.forth.gr>
>>>>> URL:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 10, 2018, at 3:53 PM, Athanasios Velios 
>>>>>> <a.velios at arts.ac.uk <mailto:a.velios at arts.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked through the mailing list archive but could not find an 
>>>>>> answer for:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is F4 Manifestation Singleton a child of E24 and not a child 
>>>>>> of E22?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its scope note starts with: "This class comprises physical 
>>>>>> objects..."
>>>>>> and we are always talking about a carrier. Are there any examples of
>>>>>> features-carriers that I can't think of? If, when scratching a 
>>>>>> poem on a
>>>>>> rocky mountain, the mountain is considered a carrier, then I think we
>>>>>> should update the scope note to reflect that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanasis
>>>>>> This email and any attachments are intended solely for the 
>>>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information. If you are 
>>>>>> not the intended recipient of this email and/or its attachments 
>>>>>> you must not take any action based upon them and you must not 
>>>>>> copy or show them to anyone. Please send the email back to us and 
>>>>>> immediately and permanently delete it and its attachments. Where 
>>>>>> this email is unrelated to the business of University of the Arts 
>>>>>> London or of any of its group companies the opinions expressed in 
>>>>>> it are the opinions of the sender and do not necessarily 
>>>>>> constitute those of University of the Arts London (or the 
>>>>>> relevant group company). Where the sender's signature indicates 
>>>>>> that the email is sent on behalf of UAL Short Courses Limited the 
>>>>>> following also applies: UAL Short Courses Limited is a company 
>>>>>> registered in England and Wales under company number 02361261. 
>>>>>> Registered Office: University of the Arts London, 272 High 
>>>>>> Holborn, London WC1V 7EY
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>   Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>                                 |  Email:martin at ics.forth.gr  |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>                 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>>                  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>               Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl            |
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>   Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>                                 |  Email:martin at ics.forth.gr  |
>>                                                               |
>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>                                                               |
>>                 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>                  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>                                                               |
>>               Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl            |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Crm-sig mailing list
>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
                                                              |
              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
--------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/pipermail/crm-sig/attachments/20180918/409ca619/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the Crm-sig mailing list