[Crm-sig] HW S11

Martin Doerr martin at ics.forth.gr
Sat Apr 21 21:54:47 EEST 2018


Dear Franco,

I agree in all points and with your later messages, only, I would not 
talk about a sample when the material stays in situ. I'd just describe 
it with another class, and exclude this sense from the definition. I'd 
say we measure properties in some area of the object, because the 
further history is that of the whole object. The "sample area" is not 
particularly protected. Therefore I do not see an individuality to the 
sampling area.

The splitting is interesting, because then we have a unit of matter that 
makes its own history, but the "sampleness" goes back to the initial 
removal. Since this is frequent practice, we need to think about the 
identity and unity criteria. Probably we need a transitive property of 
its own. If we have a bore core, we can split it along the drilling 
direction. If it is liquid or powder, direction doesn't matter.

Any good idea?

All the best,

Martin

On 4/10/2018 8:38 PM, Franco Niccolucci wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I agree with Martin that the current scope note is formally correct: 
> "no stability of form required", means that form may need to remain 
> stable or it is not relevant for the experiment.
>
> The reason is that for a sample the identity criteria may not concern 
> the form, and possibly they also may not concern volume, weight, 
> colour, etc. A sample is characterized by some property which enables 
> the experimenter to consider the sample as representative of something 
> else, usually (but not necessarily) a larger thing.
> So it is not strange at all that in some cases one may split a sample 
> into two (or more) smaller parts, each one still being a (the?) 
> sample; in other cases this is impossible. “Splittable” samples are 
> chosen because they represent some characteristic of the Amount of 
> Matter from which they are *selected* for which the volume is not 
> relevant.
> For example, to analyze a large quantity of water one may take one dl 
> (0.1 l). But also dividing that sample into 10 parts, the 1 cc (0.01 
> l) sample(s) is still the (same) sample. One might think to 
> indefinitely continue the splitting process (if they have nothing 
> better to do) as long as the chemical properties remain the same. But, 
> when ideally the splitting arrives to the molecule level, further 
> splitting must stop or the sample is lost. So indefinite sample 
> “splittability” is not an absolute property even for those 
> “splittable” samples, but may need to stop at some point, where 
> further splitting the sample does not produce additional samples, it 
> simply destroys it.
>
> I would say that what counts for being a sample is how you regard it: 
> the nose of Michelangelo's David may be a sample of the marble, or 
> simply be a detached piece of the statue which one may consider from 
> an artistic perceptive as an individual cultural object. In either 
> case, please do not remove it from the statue.
>
> There are actually cases in which the identity characteristics of the 
> sample do not require physically removing it from the object it is 
> part of. Here are some techniques that do not require physical sample 
> detachment
>
> - photography (visible light, UV, IR)
> - radiography
> - ecography
> - tomography
> - XRF (X-Ray Fluorescence)
> - multispectral analysis
> - colorimetry
> - infrared reflectography
>
> This is why some time ago I argued against the use of the verb 
> “remove” or “take" in the S13 scope note. In the above cases, no 
> removing is required, and that’s why restorers prefer such techniques 
> to those requiring destruction of a (small) piece of the artefact. I 
> would better use “select” as quick-and-dirty solution.
>
> Exercise: define the identity criteri for the above technologies and 
> check if the sample is splittable, and if so where splitting must stop 
> before destroying the sample.
>
> Best
>
> Franco
>
> By the way, the S11 scope note text is a bit cryptic: "with the 
> intention to be representative for some material qualities of the 
> instance of S10 Material Substantial or part of it was taken from for 
> further analysis"
> there should at least be a comma after “of” and “from” (or the 
> sentence should be rephrased), and why “further" analysis?
> Maybe: "with the intention to be representative for some material 
> qualities of the instance of S10 Material Substantial or part of it, 
> from which it was taken for analysis"
>
> F.
>
> Prof. Franco Niccolucci
> Director, VAST-LAB
> PIN - U. of Florence
> Scientific Coordinator
> ARIADNE - PARTHENOS
>
> Piazza Ciardi 25
> 59100 Prato, Italy
>
>
>> Il giorno 10 apr 2018, alle ore 15:05, Martin Doerr 
>> <martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> ha scritto:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> By the way, an interesting aspect of samples is that they can 
>> be split without loosing their identity. Obviously, there is
>> some complexity in the object-ness of the sample versus 
>> its substance. Tracing split samples is a practical issue in labs.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> martin
>>
>> On 4/10/2018 1:16 PM, Martin Doerr wrote:
>>> Dear Martijn,
>>>
>>> A better formulation is always welcome!
>>>
>>> Logically, it is correct: "no stability of form is required" does 
>>> NOT exclude stability of form. I give explicitly the example "the 
>>> sequence of layers of a bore core". The point is, that we take a 
>>> sample for a particular feature it will be a witness for. The 
>>> identity of the sample and its duration of existence as a sample 
>>> depends on the kind of feature that needs to be preserved, be it a 
>>> stratigraphy, a chemical composition or whatever. Consequently, it 
>>> can be diminished quite substanstially without loosing this 
>>> identity, whereas other impacts may not change its discreteness as a 
>>> stable piece of matter, but destroy the relevant composition.
>>>
>>> Proposals welcome.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> On 4/9/2018 11:15 PM, P.M. van Leusen wrote:
>>>> "no stability of form is required" would exclude some types of 
>>>> samples, e.g. kubiena tin samples taken for microstratigraphy, 
>>>> palynology, or paleomagnetism. I would advise excising this phrase.
>>>> Martijn
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 21:19 Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr 
>>>> <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> Here my proposal for a better scope note:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> S11 Amount of Matter[1]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subclass of:         S10 Material Substantial
>>>>
>>>> Superclass of:      S12 Amount of Fluid
>>>>
>>>>                            S13 Sample
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scope note:         This class comprises fixed amounts of matter 
>>>> specified as some air, some water, some soil, etc., defined by the 
>>>> total and integrity of their material content. In order to be able 
>>>> to identify and recognize in practice one instance of S11 Amount of 
>>>> Matter, some sort of confinement is needed that serves as 
>>>> a constraint for the enclosed matter and the integrity of the 
>>>> content, such as a bottle. In contrast to instances of E18 Physical 
>>>> Thing, no stability of form is required. The content may be put 
>>>> into another bottle without loosing its identity. Subclasses may 
>>>> define very different identity conditions for the integrity of 
>>>> the content, such as chemical composition, or the sequence 
>>>> of layers of a bore core. Whereas an instance of E18 Physical Thing 
>>>> may gradually change form and chemical composition preserving its 
>>>> identity, such as living beings, an instance of S11 Amount of 
>>>> Matter may loose its identifying features by such processes. 
>>>> What matters for the identity of an instance of S1 Amount of Matter 
>>>> is the preservation of a relevant composition from the initial 
>>>> state of definition on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
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>>>> martin at ics.forth.gr
>>>>  |
>>>>                  |
>>>>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
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>>> -- 
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
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>>>  |
>>>                |
>>>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>                |
>>>                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>                |
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>>
>> -- 
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>                                |  Email:
>> martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
>>  |
>>              |
>>                Center for Cultural Informatics             |
>>                Information Systems Laboratory              |
>>                 Institute of Computer Science              |
>>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>              |
>>                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece             |
>>              |
>>              Web-site:
>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>            |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
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>

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
                                                              |
              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
--------------------------------------------------------------

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