[Crm-sig] HW S11

Franco Niccolucci franco.niccolucci at gmail.com
Tue Apr 10 20:45:02 EEST 2018


Again agree with Martin (what’s happening to me?) and like Wiggins, I have a copy of it on my night table for night meditation.

In my opinion the issue raised by Daria belongs to the category of the Ship of Theseus paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)

Franco

Prof. Franco Niccolucci
Director, VAST-LAB
PIN - U. of Florence
Scientific Coordinator
ARIADNE - PARTHENOS

Piazza Ciardi 25
59100 Prato, Italy


> Il giorno 10 apr 2018, alle ore 19:06, Martin Doerr <martin at ics.forth.gr> ha scritto:
> 
> Dear Daria,
> 
> This is a much debated question. I follow the theory of David Wiggins (Sameness and Substance Renewed (Cambridge, 2001)), which appears to me to be consistent. There is no natural identity to something material. We need to specify under which category we consider some matter. The category must provide identity criteria beforehand. The same matter may participate in different "things" of different identity. The identity conditions of a category must serve a purpose. 
> The purpose is identified by a question.
> 
> So, question: "Is this an original Varsari? " could be defined in terms of the actual matter Varsari had in his hands and the way he gave it artistic shape, regardless later modifications. We could define the end of existence when major parts of the paint layer are lost, or when the last major part is lost, or latest, when the whole paint layer is lost.
> 
> This category of "original painting" would "answer": "still the same".
> Another definition may be based on phases and degrees of replaced matter. But they easily run into problems with
> environmentally caused degradation and natural decay of material, which is a continuous process. So, change of a
> physical object is inevitable and continuous. It is much more prominent in living beings. 
> 
> I would associate conservation states rather with secondary features of objects and not with their overall identity.
> Again we need a definition of relevant traits separating one from the other.
> 
> I agree that physical objects can change form. This is why we talk about "relative stability". The specific type should determine which deviation of form is "unnatural","renders the object unusable", "destroyed" or whatever may determine its practical end of existence and transition into something else or disappearance.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Martin
> 
> On 4/10/2018 4:57 PM, Дарья Юрьевна Гук wrote:
>> Maybe I am not right, but a state of conservation is under discussion. "Vasari" before of after restoration. Is it the same identity? Same Vasari, artefact could change form but we tell about it "the same item". 
>> 
>> 
>> With kind regards,
>> Daria Hookk
>> 
>> Senior Researcher of
>> the dept. of archaeology of
>> Eastern Europe and Siberia of 
>> the State Hermitage Museum,
>> ICOMOS member
>> 
>> 
>> 190000, Санкт-Петербург, Дворцовая наб.34
>> Тел. (812) 3121966; мест. 2548
>> Факс (812) 7109009
>> E-mail: 
>> hookk at hermitage.ru
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Martin Doerr [
>> mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr
>> ]
>> To: 
>> crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>> 
>> Sent: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 17:05:02 +0400
>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] HW S11
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> By the way, an interesting aspect of samples is that they can be split 
>>> without loosing their identity. Obviously, there is
>>> some complexity in the object-ness of the sample versus its substance. 
>>> Tracing split samples is a practical issue in labs.
>>> 
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> martin
>>> 
>>> On 4/10/2018 1:16 PM, Martin Doerr wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Dear Martijn,
>>>> 
>>>> A better formulation is always welcome!
>>>> 
>>>> Logically, it is correct: "no stability of form is required" does NOT 
>>>> exclude stability of form. I give explicitly the example "the sequence 
>>>> of layers of a bore core". The point is, that we take a sample for a 
>>>> particular feature it will be a witness for. The identity of the 
>>>> sample and its duration of existence as a sample depends on the kind 
>>>> of feature that needs to be preserved, be it a stratigraphy, a 
>>>> chemical composition or whatever. Consequently, it can be diminished 
>>>> quite substanstially without loosing this identity, whereas other 
>>>> impacts may not change its discreteness as a stable piece of matter, 
>>>> but destroy the relevant composition.
>>>> 
>>>> Proposals welcome.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Martin
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/9/2018 11:15 PM, P.M. van Leusen wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> "no stability of form is required" would exclude some types of 
>>>>> samples, e.g. kubiena tin samples taken for microstratigraphy, 
>>>>> palynology, or paleomagnetism. I would advise excising this phrase.
>>>>> Martijn
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 21:19 Martin Doerr <
>>>>> martin at ics.forth.gr
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>     Dear All,
>>>>> 
>>>>>     Here my proposal for a better scope note:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>           S11 Amount of Matter[1]
>>>>> 
>>>>>     Subclass of: S10
>>>>>     <#m_2886038186972212311__S10_Material_Substantial> Material
>>>>>     Substantial
>>>>> 
>>>>>     Superclass of:S12 <#m_2886038186972212311__S12_Amount_of> Amount
>>>>>     of Fluid
>>>>> 
>>>>>     S13 <#m_2886038186972212311__S13_Sample> Sample
>>>>> 
>>>>>     Scope note:This class comprises fixed amounts of matter specified
>>>>>     as some air, some water, some soil, etc., defined by the total
>>>>>     and integrity of their material content. In order to be able to
>>>>>     identify and recognize in practice one instance of S11 Amount of
>>>>>     Matter, some sort of confinement is needed that serves as a
>>>>>     constraint for the enclosed matter and the integrity of the
>>>>>     content, such as a bottle. In contrast to instances of E18
>>>>>     Physical Thing, no stability of form is required. The content may
>>>>>     be put into another bottle without loosing its identity.
>>>>>     Subclasses may define very different identity conditions for the
>>>>>     integrity of the content, such as chemical composition, or the
>>>>>     sequence of layers of a bore core. Whereas an instance of E18
>>>>>     Physical Thing may gradually change form and chemical composition
>>>>>     preserving its identity, such as living beings, an instance of
>>>>>     S11 Amount of Matter may loose its identifying features by such
>>>>>     processes. What matters for the identity of an instance of S1
>>>>>     Amount of Matter is the preservation of a relevant composition
>>>>>     from the initial state of definition on.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    
>>>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>     --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>       Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>>       Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>>                                     |  
>>>>> Email:martin at ics.forth.gr
>>> <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>
>>>   |
>>> 
>>>>>                                                                   |
>>>>>                     Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>>                     Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>>                      Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>>         Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>>                                                                   |
>>>>>                     N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>>>                      GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>>>                                                                   |
>>>>>                   Web-site:
>>>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>>>             |
>>>>>     --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>>     
>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>>>>> 
>>>>>     
>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>   Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>                                 |  
>>>> Email:martin at ics.forth.gr
>>>>   |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>                 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>>                  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>               Web-site:
>>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>>             |
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>> 
>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>   Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>                                 |  Email: 
>>> martin at ics.forth.gr
>>>  |
>>>                                                               |
>>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>                                                               |
>>>                 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>                  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>                                                               |
>>>               Web-site: 
>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>>            |
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> -- 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>                                |  Email: 
> martin at ics.forth.gr
>  |
>                                                              |        
>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>                                                              |
>                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>                                                              |
>              Web-site: 
> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>            |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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