[Crm-sig] Rights model

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Tue Mar 21 19:03:29 EET 2017


I agree. It's horribly complicated.
The art is to break down the issues into treatable units, that answer 
relevant questions
by priority ranking. Not to model what "Rights" can mean. Any help in 
separating the questions most welcome.

best,

martin

On 21/3/2017 4:36 μμ, Simon Spero wrote:
>
> I was about to write that "It's more complicated than that", but you 
> got there first.
> Also your comments over-simplify :-)
>
> The good thing about personal property and intellectual property is 
> that at least they're not real property. That's where things really 
> get confused.
>
> BTW, it is not always possible to treat ownership by more than one 
> legal persons as if they were a single entity. The rights of the 
> parties may differ in different situations.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 6:32 AM martin <martin at ics.forth.gr 
> <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Robert, Stephen,
>
>     I think these questions are too complex for an e-mail discussion.
>     It is
>     absolutely non-trivial to talk about
>     50% ownership. The CRM was clearly not made to describe business
>     transaction in the way you mention below. That needs a careful
>     extension
>     and systematic description of the questions. We had formed a team to
>     investigate business models analyzing spectrum, but the partners from
>     Collection Trust dropped out later.
>
>     The first action would be to restart that work, form a team, and
>     recover
>     all arguments in the minutes.
>
>     As CRM-SIG, we are interested in robust models that we can
>     recommend as
>     standards. That requires a complete understanding of the issues.
>
>     The reasoning about owning a physical thing is very different from
>     owning an Information Object. Metaphoric analogies natural language is
>     built on can be very deceiving.
>
>     Any user of the CRM can make his own extensions any time. It is not a
>     virtue to reuse CRM constructs for areas not intended to. That causes
>     the typical mess of pseudo-compatiblity.
>
>     If we describe physical ownership as a E30 Right, we come in conflict
>     with the property.
>
>     I propose to split the questions.
>
>     Martin
>
>
>     On 21/3/2017 8:25 πμ, Stephen Stead wrote:
>     > Robert
>     > The question of a Right held by multiple people is indeed
>     interesting.
>     > Might it be modelled as all parties forming a Group that then
>     holds the Right?
>     > If the proportions of the Right held by individuals was
>     important then I think your suggestion of component Rights that
>     form part of the overall Right and each having a dimension would
>     do very well.
>     > Rgds
>     > SdS
>     >
>     > Stephen Stead
>     > Tel +44 20 8668 3075
>     > Mob +44 7802 755 013
>     > E-mail steads at paveprime.com <mailto:steads at paveprime.com>
>     > LinkedIn Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/in/steads
>     >
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr
>     <mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>] On Behalf Of Robert Sanderson
>     > Sent: 20 March 2017 21:42
>     > To: martin <martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>;
>     crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>     > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Rights model
>     >
>     >
>     > Apologies for the delay in responding, we’ve been trying to map
>     out the extent of the information we need to track to enable
>     research on historical art markets and ownership.
>     >
>     > One of the most interesting and challenging questions that has
>     come up is around joint ownership of a piece of art. Ownership of
>     an object is clearly a Right, but is it divisible with
>     P148_has_component (via inheritance from E89)?  For example, if
>     two Persons each own 50% of the value of an object, is there an
>     Ownership Right, which has two component Rights, each of which
>     have a dimension of 50% ?
>     >
>     > Or would that mean that there are two halves of the expression
>     of the Right, perhaps the main clause and an equally long rider?
>     >
>     > I think that answering this question will help with the broader
>     question of the meaning of E30.
>     >
>     > Some use cases:
>     >   * Two dealers (Knoedler and Goupil) jointly pay for a
>     painting, and later jointly share the profits (or loss!) when it’s
>     sold
>     >   * A donor donates 10% of the value of an object each year for
>     10 years (to spread out the tax write off)
>     >   * A married couple divorce and agree to have half share in the
>     value of their statue
>     >   * The children of the owner inherit an equal share of the
>     valuable manuscript on the owner’s death
>     >   * The object is jointly owned by the city and the museum from
>     when the city and museum were indistinguishable as organizations
>     >
>     > Many thanks,
>     >
>     > Rob
>     >
>     > On 3/10/17, 9:53 AM, "Crm-sig on behalf of martin"
>     <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr
>     <mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of
>     martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>     >
>     >      On 28/2/2017 9:50 μμ, Robert Sanderson wrote:
>     >      > Dear all,
>     >      >
>     >      > Given the current model, I believe that E30 Right is an
>     instance of the holding of a Right, rather than the concept of the
>     Right itself?  For example, E30 is not “Copyright” or “Apache 2.0”
>     or “Ownership” … it is “The holding of copyright of an object by
>     Martin”, “the use of Apache 2.0 for some code by Rob”, or
>     “Ownership of a house by Emma”.
>     >      Dear Robert,
>     >
>     >      Yes, here we should actually talk about three things: The
>     holding of the
>     >      right, the content of the right, and the concept of the
>     right. E30 is
>     >      intended to be the content of the right, which is
>     relatively trivial if
>     >      it is just an instance of unspecified copyright, but not if
>     it is an
>     >      individual contract. If the holding of the right can be
>     merged with the
>     >      content or not, is to be discussed. See my previous message.
>     >
>     >      best,
>     >
>     >      martin
>     >      >
>     >      > If this is not intended to be the case, can someone
>     provide an example in RDF (your serialization preference is fine)
>     that demonstrates two different people holding two different
>     rights over the same object?
>     >      >
>     >      > Given that … we are expected to then use P2_has_type to
>     refer to the sort of Right, and thus queries should look for:
>     ?object P104_is_subject_to ?right . ?right P2_has_type
>     <actual_right> .
>     >      > If so, how would one refer to the Creative Commons
>     licenses? Still with P2?
>     >      >
>     >      > Many thanks!
>     >      >
>     >      > Rob
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      > Example of P104/P105/P75:
>     >      > {
>     >      >    "@context": "https://linked.art/ns/context/1/full.jsonld",
>     >      >    "@id": "https://linked.art/example/object/31",
>     >      >    "@type": "crm:E22_Man-Made_Object",
>     >      >    "rdfs:label": "Object",
>     >      >    "crm:P104_is_subject_to": [
>     >      >      "https://linked.art/example/Right/0",
>     >      >      "https://linked.art/example/Right/1"
>     >      >    ],
>     >      >    "crm:P105_right_held_by": [
>     >      >      {
>     >      >        "@id": "https://linked.art/example/actor/6",
>     >      >        "@type": "crm:E39_Actor",
>     >      >        "rdfs:label": "Owner",
>     >      >        "crm:P75_possesses": {
>     >      >          "@id": "https://linked.art/example/Right/0",
>     >      >          "@type": "crm:E30_Right",
>     >      >          "rdfs:label": "Ownership Right by Owner of Object"
>     >      >        }
>     >      >      },
>     >      >      {
>     >      >        "@id": "https://linked.art/example/actor/7",
>     >      >        "@type": "crm:E39_Actor",
>     >      >        "rdfs:label": "Holder",
>     >      >        "crm:P75_possesses": {
>     >      >          "@id": "https://linked.art/example/Right/1",
>     >      >          "@type": "crm:E30_Right",
>     >      >          "rdfs:label": "Copyright by Holder of Object['s
>     information object]"
>     >      >        }
>     >      >      }
>     >      >    ]
>     >      > }
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      > _______________________________________________
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>     >
>     >      --
>     >
>     > --------------------------------------------------------------
>     >        Dr. Martin Doerr              | Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>     >        Research Director             | Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>     >                                      |  Email:
>     martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr> |
>     >           |
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>     >                      Information Systems Laboratory           |
>     >                       Institute of Computer Science           |
>     >          Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>     >           |
>     >                      N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,          |
>     >                       GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece          |
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>     --
>
>     --------------------------------------------------------------
>       Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
>       Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
>                                     |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
>     <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr> |
>     |
>                     Center for Cultural Informatics  |
>                     Information Systems Laboratory |
>                      Institute of Computer Science |
>         Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)  |
>     |
>                     N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,  |
>                      GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece  |
>     |
>                   Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl          |
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-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
                                                              |
              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
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