[Crm-sig] Fwd: Re: Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8

Dominic Oldman doint at oldman.me.uk
Fri Mar 10 20:04:46 EET 2017


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Dominic Oldman" <doint at oldman.me.uk>
Date: 10 Mar 2017 6:03 p.m.
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
To: "Martin Doerr" <martin at ics.forth.gr>
Cc:

Sure, that seems logical as in this case the part of expression is
arbitrary. I will submit an issue for a clarification in the scope note
between self contain expression and fragment and write draft submission.

Cheers,

Dominic

On 10 Mar 2017 5:40 p.m., "martin" <martin at ics.forth.gr> wrote:

> Dear Dominic,
>
> If you regard this as a new issue, or new evidence of an old one, please
> mark your message by "ISSUE", and it will be on the agenda. Every crm-sig
> member has the right to raise an issue.
>
> BTW, I agree that a "Page" is not a self-contained expression, but a
> fragment. In general, it does not intend to stop at meaningful
> propositional boundaries. It might be, that a self-contained expression is
> made to fit on one page. The levels of consideration are tricky: The
> scanned image as an expression in its own right (or better just Information
> Object?) incorporates but is not logically the same as the incorporated
> expression.
>
> best,
>
> martin
>
> On 10/3/2017 5:24 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote:
>
> Hi Florian,
>
> Here is an off line discussion that we should have put on the list.
>
> Cheers,
>
> D
>
>
> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <
> c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no> wrote:
>
>> Do so, and send my regards. Please incorproate the following example:
>>
>>
>> To create excerpts is common activity in lexicography and history. An
>> excerpt is indeed a fragement of a text. The  corresponding expression is a
>> fragment expression.  See for example a paperslip for the word 'shovelfork'
>> (used to prepare la (small) field instead of ploughing.  The text is a
>> fragment of a longer text dealing with somebody childhood memories
>>
>>
>> http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg​
>>
>>
>> The entire paper slip represents a self-contained expression where a
>> expression fragment is incorporated (in the corresponding work)
>>
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Christian-Emil
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk>
>> *Sent:* 10 March 2017 13:32
>>
>> *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>> *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> I note that this didnt go on the list - Can I post this to the list as I
>> think it is important generally.
>>
>> D
>>
>> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Although I think then the scope note could be much clearer on E23
>>> because it tends to suggest fragments isolated from the whole whereas in
>>> this case the section still resides within a whole. Although the scope note
>>> does state "excerpts" I still think this could be stated far more clearly
>>> with less ambiguity -  if it does mean that these excerpts can be
>>> identified sections of the information object within a whole text.
>>>
>>> Can we put this on the agenda for the next meeting?
>>>
>>> D
>>>
>>>
>>> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <
>>> c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is not necessarily so that the text printed on a page is a
>>>> self-contained expression, it is in general a F23 Expression Fragment ​
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> Christian-Emil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> F22 Self-Contained Expression
>>>>
>>>> This class comprises the immaterial realisations of individual works at
>>>> a particular time that are regarded as a complete whole. The quality of
>>>> wholeness reflects the intention of its creator that this expression should
>>>> convey the concept of the work. Such a whole can in turn be part of a
>>>> larger whole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Inherent to the notion of work is the completion of recognisable
>>>> outcomes of the work. These outcomes, i.e. the Self-Contained Expressions,
>>>> are regarded as the symbolic equivalents of Individual Works, which form
>>>> the atoms of a complex work. A Self-Contained Expression may contain
>>>> expressions or parts of expressions from other work, such as citations or
>>>> items collected in anthologies. Even though they are incorporated in the
>>>> Self-Contained Expression, they are not regarded as becoming members of the
>>>> expressed container work by their inclusion in the expression, but are
>>>> rather regarded as foreign or referred to elements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> F22 Self-Contained Expression can be distinguished from F23 Expression
>>>> Fragment in that an F23 Expression Fragment was not intended by its creator
>>>> to make sense by itself. Normally creators would characterise an outcome of
>>>> a work as finished. In other cases, one could recognise an outcome of a
>>>> work as complete from the elaboration or logical coherence of its content,
>>>> or if there is any historical knowledge about the creator deliberately or
>>>> accidentally never finishing (completing) that particular expression. In
>>>> all those cases, one would regard an expression as self-contained.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk>
>>>> *Sent:* 09 March 2017 20:50
>>>> *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So in this case the self contained expression (information object)
>>>> identified as page 1 can then be represented by a part of a PDF image which
>>>> itself identifies parts (a physical page?) which are identified accordingly.
>>>>
>>>> I'm still not sure whether this is what Florian means though - so await
>>>> his reply.
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <
>>>> c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> There are many ways to number or put identifiers to parts of written
>>>>> or printed material:folio, sheet (versio/recto), page.
>>>>> If the physical original is known, perhaps a starting point would be
>>>>> to model the physical parts and their relationships.
>>>>>
>>>>> The pdfs in question seems to be facsimiles of these physical parts.
>>>>> (a single page, double pages etc). A possible way to model them is to see
>>>>> the pdfs as carriers of visual items reperesenting the physical objects of
>>>>> the specific item (P5).
>>>>>
>>>>> The first example in the compenote of  P138 represents (has
>>>>> representation):
>>>>>        the digital file found at http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No
>>>>> -MM_N0001-01.jpg (E36) represents page 1 of Edward Munch's manuscript
>>>>> MM N 1, Munch-museet (E73) mode of representation Digitisation(E55)
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>> Christian-Emil
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Dominic
>>>>> Oldman <DOldman at britishmuseum.org>
>>>>> Sent: 09 March 2017 17:59
>>>>> To: Florian Kräutli; crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Florian,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> You have an expression that is organised with page numbers. This is
>>>>> reproduced in the PDF. The expression page numbers are the same (the
>>>>> information object) but page 1 is spread over two carrier pages. i.e. page
>>>>> 1 is still page 1 as an information object but on the application adobe
>>>>> spreads it over two application carrier pages. Is that right? or is it
>>>>> something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the expression is the same (the same information object) then isn't
>>>>> page 1, page 1
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you clarify.
>>>>>
>>>>> D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Crm-sig [crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr] on behalf of Florian
>>>>> Kräutli [fkraeutli at mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de]
>>>>> Sent: 09 March 2017 10:38
>>>>> To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Martin,
>>>>>
>>>>> many thanks for your input!
>>>>>
>>>>> Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in the PDF represent
>>>>> one or two pages of the book?
>>>>>
>>>>> Later on, we might have more specific questions that will require us
>>>>> to define the relationships between these two page identifiers (in the
>>>>> physical book and in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need to
>>>>> manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can not assume that page n in
>>>>> a book corresponds to page n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain
>>>>> some additional pages with information about the digitisation process.
>>>>>
>>>>> For now we however only need a binary answer: double-spread yes or no.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Florian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00, crm-sig-request at ics.forth.gr wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to
>>>>> >       crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>> >       http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>> >       crm-sig-request at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> >
>>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>> >       crm-sig-owner at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> >
>>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> > than "Re: Contents of Crm-sig digest..."
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Today's Topics:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >   1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ----------
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Message: 1
>>>>> > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200
>>>>> > From: martin <martin at ics.forth.gr>
>>>>> > To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads
>>>>> > Message-ID: <e4b3d793-40d5-f5d5-1f39-ff2404bab29b at ics.forth.gr>
>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Dear Florian,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There is no model without a question. Pages of books constitute a
>>>>> > partitioning of an
>>>>> > information object. Each page number can be seen as an identifier.
>>>>> > Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning system. The
>>>>> > reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned double pages.
>>>>> > Each scanned image represents, actually also incorporates, the text
>>>>> of
>>>>> > two pages of the reproduced.
>>>>> > Between alternative partitionings, one can define includes/overlaps
>>>>> > relations.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If this is elegant, depends on what queries or functions you'd like
>>>>> to
>>>>> > support.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Best,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > martin
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote:
>>>>> >> Dear all,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been reproduced (F33)
>>>>> as PDFs (E84).
>>>>> >> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads i.e. one page
>>>>> in the PDF represents two pages in the book.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Is there an elegant way to model this?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Best,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Florian
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>> >> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>> >  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>> >                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>>> >                                                              |
>>>>> >                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>> >                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>> >                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>> >    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>> >                                                              |
>>>>> >                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>>> >                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>>> >                                                              |
>>>>> >              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>> > Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> > End of Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>>> > ***************************************
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing listCrm-sig at ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>
>
> --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>                                                              |
>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>                                                              |
>                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>                                                              |
>              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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