[Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Fri Mar 10 18:34:49 EET 2017


Dear Dominic,

If you regard this as a new issue, or new evidence of an old one, please 
mark your message by "ISSUE", and it will be on the agenda. Every 
crm-sig member has the right to raise an issue.

BTW, I agree that a "Page" is not a self-contained expression, but a 
fragment. In general, it does not intend to stop at meaningful 
propositional boundaries. It might be, that a self-contained expression 
is made to fit on one page. The levels of consideration are tricky: The 
scanned image as an expression in its own right (or better just 
Information Object?) incorporates but is not logically the same as the 
incorporated expression.

best,

martin

On 10/3/2017 5:24 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote:
> Hi Florian,
>
> Here is an off line discussion that we should have put on the list.
>
> Cheers,
>
> D
>
>
> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore 
> <c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no <mailto:c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no>> wrote:
>
>     Do so, and send my regards. Please incorproate the following example:
>
>
>     To create excerpts is common activity in lexicography and history.
>     An excerpt is indeed a fragement of a text. The  corresponding
>     expression is a fragment expression. See for example a paperslip
>     for the word 'shovelfork' (used to prepare la (small) field
>     instead of ploughing.  The text is a fragment of a longer text
>     dealing with somebody childhood memories
>
>
>     http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg
>     <http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg>​
>
>
>     The entire paper slip represents a self-contained expression where
>     a expression fragment is incorporated (in the corresponding work)
>
>
>     Best
>
>     Christian-Emil
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk
>     <mailto:doint at oldman.me.uk>>
>     *Sent:* 10 March 2017 13:32
>
>     *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>     *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>     Hi Christian,
>
>     I note that this didnt go on the list - Can I post this to the
>     list as I think it is important generally.
>
>     D
>
>     orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
>
>     On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Dominic Oldman
>     <doint at oldman.me.uk <mailto:doint at oldman.me.uk>> wrote:
>
>         Although I think then the scope note could be much clearer on
>         E23 because it tends to suggest fragments isolated from the
>         whole whereas in this case the section still resides within a
>         whole. Although the scope note does state "excerpts" I still
>         think this could be stated far more clearly with less
>         ambiguity -  if it does mean that these excerpts can be
>         identified sections of the information object within a whole
>         text.
>
>         Can we put this on the agenda for the next meeting?
>
>         D
>
>         orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>         <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
>
>         On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>         <c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no <mailto:c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no>> wrote:
>
>             It is not necessarily so that the text printed on a page
>             is a self-contained expression, it is in general a F23
>             Expression Fragment ​
>
>
>             Best
>
>             Christian-Emil
>
>
>             F22 Self-Contained Expression
>
>             This class comprises the immaterial realisations of
>             individual works at a particular time that are regarded as
>             a complete whole. The quality of wholeness reflects the
>             intention of its creator that this expression should
>             convey the concept of the work. Such a whole can in turn
>             be part of a larger whole.
>
>
>             Inherent to the notion of work is the completion of
>             recognisable outcomes of the work. These outcomes, i.e.
>             the Self-Contained Expressions, are regarded as the
>             symbolic equivalents of Individual Works, which form the
>             atoms of a complex work. A Self-Contained Expression may
>             contain expressions or parts of expressions from other
>             work, such as citations or items collected in anthologies.
>             Even though they are incorporated in the Self-Contained
>             Expression, they are not regarded as becoming members of
>             the expressed container work by their inclusion in the
>             expression, but are rather regarded as foreign or referred
>             to elements.
>
>
>             F22 Self-Contained Expression can be distinguished from
>             F23 Expression Fragment in that an F23 Expression Fragment
>             was not intended by its creator to make sense by itself.
>             Normally creators would characterise an outcome of a work
>             as finished. In other cases, one could recognise an
>             outcome of a work as complete from the elaboration or
>             logical coherence of its content, or if there is any
>             historical knowledge about the creator deliberately or
>             accidentally never finishing (completing) that particular
>             expression. In all those cases, one would regard an
>             expression as self-contained.
>
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             *From:* Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk
>             <mailto:doint at oldman.me.uk>>
>             *Sent:* 09 March 2017 20:50
>             *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>
>             *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>
>             So in this case the self contained expression (information
>             object) identified as page 1 can then be represented by a
>             part of a PDF image which itself identifies parts (a
>             physical page?) which are identified accordingly.
>
>             I'm still not sure whether this is what Florian means
>             though - so await his reply.
>
>             D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>             orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>             <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
>
>             On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>             <c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no <mailto:c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no>> wrote:
>
>                 Hi
>                 There are many ways to number or put identifiers to
>                 parts of written or printed material:folio, sheet
>                 (versio/recto), page.
>                 If the physical original is known, perhaps a starting
>                 point would be to model the physical parts and their
>                 relationships.
>
>                 The pdfs in question seems to be facsimiles of these
>                 physical parts. (a single page, double pages etc). A
>                 possible way to model them is to see the pdfs as
>                 carriers of visual items reperesenting the physical
>                 objects of the specific item (P5).
>
>                 The first example in the compenote of  P138 represents
>                 (has representation):
>                        the digital file found at
>                 http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No-MM_N0001-01.jpg
>                 <http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No-MM_N0001-01.jpg> (E36)
>                 represents page 1 of Edward Munch's manuscript MM N 1,
>                 Munch-museet (E73) mode of representation
>                 Digitisation(E55)
>
>                 Best
>                 Christian-Emil
>                 ________________________________________
>                 From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>> on behalf of
>                 Dominic Oldman <DOldman at britishmuseum.org
>                 <mailto:DOldman at britishmuseum.org>>
>                 Sent: 09 March 2017 17:59
>                 To: Florian Kräutli; crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>
>                 Hi Florian,
>
>                 Just trying to understand.
>
>                 You have an expression that is organised with page
>                 numbers. This is reproduced in the PDF. The expression
>                 page numbers are the same (the information object) but
>                 page 1 is spread over two carrier pages. i.e. page 1
>                 is still page 1 as an information object but on the
>                 application adobe spreads it over two application
>                 carrier pages. Is that right? or is it something else.
>
>                 If the expression is the same (the same information
>                 object) then isn't page 1, page 1
>
>                 Can you clarify.
>
>                 D
>
>
>                 ________________________________________
>                 From: Crm-sig [crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>] on behalf of
>                 Florian Kräutli [fkraeutli at mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de
>                 <mailto:fkraeutli at mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de>]
>                 Sent: 09 March 2017 10:38
>                 To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>
>                 Dear Martin,
>
>                 many thanks for your input!
>
>                 Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in
>                 the PDF represent one or two pages of the book?
>
>                 Later on, we might have more specific questions that
>                 will require us to define the relationships between
>                 these two page identifiers (in the physical book and
>                 in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need
>                 to manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can
>                 not assume that page n in a book corresponds to page
>                 n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain some
>                 additional pages with information about the
>                 digitisation process.
>
>                 For now we however only need a binary answer:
>                 double-spread yes or no.
>
>                 All the best,
>
>                 Florian
>
>
>                 > On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00,
>                 crm-sig-request at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:crm-sig-request at ics.forth.gr> wrote:
>                 >
>                 > Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to
>                 > crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 >
>                 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
>                 visit
>                 > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>                 <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig>
>                 > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
>                 'help' to
>                 > crm-sig-request at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:crm-sig-request at ics.forth.gr>
>                 >
>                 > You can reach the person managing the list at
>                 > crm-sig-owner at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:crm-sig-owner at ics.forth.gr>
>                 >
>                 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
>                 is more specific
>                 > than "Re: Contents of Crm-sig digest..."
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > Today's Topics:
>                 >
>                 >   1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin)
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >
>                 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 >
>                 > Message: 1
>                 > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200
>                 > From: martin <martin at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>
>                 > To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads
>                 > Message-ID:
>                 <e4b3d793-40d5-f5d5-1f39-ff2404bab29b at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:e4b3d793-40d5-f5d5-1f39-ff2404bab29b at ics.forth.gr>>
>                 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>                 >
>                 > Dear Florian,
>                 >
>                 > There is no model without a question. Pages of books
>                 constitute a
>                 > partitioning of an
>                 > information object. Each page number can be seen as
>                 an identifier.
>                 > Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning
>                 system. The
>                 > reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned
>                 double pages.
>                 > Each scanned image represents, actually also
>                 incorporates, the text of
>                 > two pages of the reproduced.
>                 > Between alternative partitionings, one can define
>                 includes/overlaps
>                 > relations.
>                 >
>                 > If this is elegant, depends on what queries or
>                 functions you'd like to
>                 > support.
>                 >
>                 > Best,
>                 >
>                 > martin
>                 >
>                 > On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote:
>                 >> Dear all,
>                 >>
>                 >> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been
>                 reproduced (F33) as PDFs (E84).
>                 >> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads
>                 i.e. one page in the PDF represents two pages in the book.
>                 >>
>                 >> Is there an elegant way to model this?
>                 >>
>                 >> Best,
>                 >>
>                 >> Florian
>                 >> _______________________________________________
>                 >> Crm-sig mailing list
>                 >> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>                 <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig>
>                 >>
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > --
>                 >
>                 >
>                 --------------------------------------------------------------
>                 >  Dr. Martin Doerr             | Vox:+30(2810)391625
>                 <tel:%2B30%282810%29391625>       |
>                 >  Research Director        |  Fax:+30(2810)391638
>                 <tel:%2B30%282810%29391638>        |
>                 >         | Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
>                 <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr> |
>                 >           |
>                 >       Center for Cultural Informatics            |
>                 > Information Systems Laboratory             |
>                 >  Institute of Computer Science         |
>                 > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas
>                 (FORTH)   |
>                 >           |
>                 > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,      |
>                 >        GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>                 >           |
>                 >     Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
>                 >
>                 --------------------------------------------------------------
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > ------------------------------
>                 >
>                 > Subject: Digest Footer
>                 >
>                 > _______________________________________________
>                 > Crm-sig mailing list
>                 > Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>                 <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig>
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > ------------------------------
>                 >
>                 > End of Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>                 > ***************************************
>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Crm-sig mailing list
>                 Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>                 <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Crm-sig mailing list
>                 Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>                 <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig>
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Crm-sig mailing list
>                 Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>                 http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>                 <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig


-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
                                                              |
              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
--------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/pipermail/crm-sig/attachments/20170310/8f178625/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the Crm-sig mailing list