[Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8

Dominic Oldman doint at oldman.me.uk
Fri Mar 10 17:24:50 EET 2017


Hi Florian,

Here is an off line discussion that we should have put on the list.

Cheers,

D


orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <
c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no> wrote:

> Do so, and send my regards. Please incorproate the following example:
>
>
> To create excerpts is common activity in lexicography and history. An
> excerpt is indeed a fragement of a text. The  corresponding expression is a
> fragment expression.  See for example a paperslip for the word 'shovelfork'
> (used to prepare la (small) field instead of ploughing.  The text is a
> fragment of a longer text dealing with somebody childhood memories
>
>
> http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg​
>
>
> The entire paper slip represents a self-contained expression where a
> expression fragment is incorporated (in the corresponding work)
>
>
> Best
>
> Christian-Emil
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk>
> *Sent:* 10 March 2017 13:32
>
> *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
> *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>
> Hi Christian,
>
> I note that this didnt go on the list - Can I post this to the list as I
> think it is important generally.
>
> D
>
> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Although I think then the scope note could be much clearer on E23 because
>> it tends to suggest fragments isolated from the whole whereas in this case
>> the section still resides within a whole. Although the scope note does
>> state "excerpts" I still think this could be stated far more clearly with
>> less ambiguity -  if it does mean that these excerpts can be identified
>> sections of the information object within a whole text.
>>
>> Can we put this on the agenda for the next meeting?
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <
>> c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no> wrote:
>>
>>> It is not necessarily so that the text printed on a page is a
>>> self-contained expression, it is in general a F23 Expression Fragment ​
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Christian-Emil
>>>
>>>
>>> F22 Self-Contained Expression
>>>
>>> This class comprises the immaterial realisations of individual works at
>>> a particular time that are regarded as a complete whole. The quality of
>>> wholeness reflects the intention of its creator that this expression should
>>> convey the concept of the work. Such a whole can in turn be part of a
>>> larger whole.
>>>
>>>
>>> Inherent to the notion of work is the completion of recognisable
>>> outcomes of the work. These outcomes, i.e. the Self-Contained Expressions,
>>> are regarded as the symbolic equivalents of Individual Works, which form
>>> the atoms of a complex work. A Self-Contained Expression may contain
>>> expressions or parts of expressions from other work, such as citations or
>>> items collected in anthologies. Even though they are incorporated in the
>>> Self-Contained Expression, they are not regarded as becoming members of the
>>> expressed container work by their inclusion in the expression, but are
>>> rather regarded as foreign or referred to elements.
>>>
>>>
>>> F22 Self-Contained Expression can be distinguished from F23 Expression
>>> Fragment in that an F23 Expression Fragment was not intended by its creator
>>> to make sense by itself. Normally creators would characterise an outcome of
>>> a work as finished. In other cases, one could recognise an outcome of a
>>> work as complete from the elaboration or logical coherence of its content,
>>> or if there is any historical knowledge about the creator deliberately or
>>> accidentally never finishing (completing) that particular expression. In
>>> all those cases, one would regard an expression as self-contained.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk>
>>> *Sent:* 09 March 2017 20:50
>>> *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>
>>>
>>> So in this case the self contained expression (information object)
>>> identified as page 1 can then be represented by a part of a PDF image which
>>> itself identifies parts (a physical page?) which are identified accordingly.
>>>
>>> I'm still not sure whether this is what Florian means though - so await
>>> his reply.
>>>
>>> D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <
>>> c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>> There are many ways to number or put identifiers to parts of written or
>>>> printed material:folio, sheet (versio/recto), page.
>>>> If the physical original is known, perhaps a starting point would be to
>>>> model the physical parts and their relationships.
>>>>
>>>> The pdfs in question seems to be facsimiles of these physical parts. (a
>>>> single page, double pages etc). A possible way to model them is to see the
>>>> pdfs as carriers of visual items reperesenting the physical objects of the
>>>> specific item (P5).
>>>>
>>>> The first example in the compenote of  P138 represents (has
>>>> representation):
>>>>        the digital file found at http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No
>>>> -MM_N0001-01.jpg (E36) represents page 1 of Edward Munch's manuscript
>>>> MM N 1, Munch-museet (E73) mode of representation Digitisation(E55)
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> Christian-Emil
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Dominic
>>>> Oldman <DOldman at britishmuseum.org>
>>>> Sent: 09 March 2017 17:59
>>>> To: Florian Kräutli; crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>>
>>>> Hi Florian,
>>>>
>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>
>>>> You have an expression that is organised with page numbers. This is
>>>> reproduced in the PDF. The expression page numbers are the same (the
>>>> information object) but page 1 is spread over two carrier pages. i.e. page
>>>> 1 is still page 1 as an information object but on the application adobe
>>>> spreads it over two application carrier pages. Is that right? or is it
>>>> something else.
>>>>
>>>> If the expression is the same (the same information object) then isn't
>>>> page 1, page 1
>>>>
>>>> Can you clarify.
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Crm-sig [crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr] on behalf of Florian
>>>> Kräutli [fkraeutli at mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de]
>>>> Sent: 09 March 2017 10:38
>>>> To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>>
>>>> Dear Martin,
>>>>
>>>> many thanks for your input!
>>>>
>>>> Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in the PDF represent
>>>> one or two pages of the book?
>>>>
>>>> Later on, we might have more specific questions that will require us to
>>>> define the relationships between these two page identifiers (in the
>>>> physical book and in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need to
>>>> manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can not assume that page n in
>>>> a book corresponds to page n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain
>>>> some additional pages with information about the digitisation process.
>>>>
>>>> For now we however only need a binary answer: double-spread yes or no.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Florian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00, crm-sig-request at ics.forth.gr wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to
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>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> > than "Re: Contents of Crm-sig digest..."
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Today's Topics:
>>>> >
>>>> >   1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----------
>>>> >
>>>> > Message: 1
>>>> > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200
>>>> > From: martin <martin at ics.forth.gr>
>>>> > To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads
>>>> > Message-ID: <e4b3d793-40d5-f5d5-1f39-ff2404bab29b at ics.forth.gr>
>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear Florian,
>>>> >
>>>> > There is no model without a question. Pages of books constitute a
>>>> > partitioning of an
>>>> > information object. Each page number can be seen as an identifier.
>>>> > Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning system. The
>>>> > reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned double pages.
>>>> > Each scanned image represents, actually also incorporates, the text of
>>>> > two pages of the reproduced.
>>>> > Between alternative partitionings, one can define includes/overlaps
>>>> > relations.
>>>> >
>>>> > If this is elegant, depends on what queries or functions you'd like to
>>>> > support.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best,
>>>> >
>>>> > martin
>>>> >
>>>> > On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote:
>>>> >> Dear all,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been reproduced (F33) as
>>>> PDFs (E84).
>>>> >> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads i.e. one page in
>>>> the PDF represents two pages in the book.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Is there an elegant way to model this?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Best,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Florian
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>> >> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>> >  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>> >                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>> >                                                              |
>>>> >                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>> >                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>> >                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>> >    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>> >                                                              |
>>>> >                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>> >                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>> >                                                              |
>>>> >              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Crm-sig mailing list
>>>> > Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > End of Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
>>>> > ***************************************
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
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