[Crm-sig] P62 Homework

Franco Niccolucci franco.niccolucci at gmail.com
Sat Jul 23 10:54:09 EEST 2016


Thank you Christian-Emile for your comment and explanation.

If you are right, then the scope note of E73 must be amended:

"This class comprises identifiable immaterial items, such as a poems, jokes, data sets, images, texts, multimedia objects, procedural prescriptions, computer program code, algorithm or mathematical formulae, that have an objectively recognizable structure and are documented as single units.
[. . .]
Examples:
-  image BM000038850.JPG from the Clayton Herbarium in London
[. . .]”

(quoted from page 28, cidoc_crm_version_6.0-2.doc)

I understood that this BM000038850.JPG is a file, otherwise what is it? 

In my opinion - but I may be wrong - your punched tape, or cards, or my hard disk, are instances of E84 Information Carrier; the file is what is written on them:
E84 Information Carrier “This 20-km-long C-E Ore’s punched tape” P128 carries E73 Information Object “photo12345.jpg, a pretty and rare picture of Franco Niccolucci in shorts”.

Another example: given its rarity, I now expect to receive messages from all the SIG members stating “Please send me by email the file of your photo in shorts”. I do not think they will mean to receive the punched tape, a bit too heavy to attach to an email; rather (its content as) an immaterial file attachment.

The confusion may arise from the linguistic (ab)use of the term “file”, which is, according to my Oxford dictionary:

1) a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a particular order for easy reference
2) the contents of a file folder or box
3) a collection of data, programs, etc., stored in a computer's memory or on a storage device under a single identifying name

1) and 2) are likely to be E22 Man-Made Object and, since we keep it in order (well, not always in good order) for the information it contains, E84 Information Carrier
3) is more likely to be an E73

This is confusing in English: in Italian (and Dutch) a “file” is only a computer file, with other words for 1)-2); in German, precise as usual, a computer file is a “Datei”, otherwise it is an “Ordner"; anglophobic Spanish and French have adopted old terms to new technology; etc. Maybe people’s thinking is influenced by their native language usage, and in all these languages “file” sounds only as immaterial computer stuff, data and the like.

Best,

Franco

PS pretty selfie of myself in shorts really available on request for free, regardless of its nature as E73 or E84 :-)

Prof. Franco Niccolucci
Director, VAST-LAB
PIN - U. of Florence
Scientific Coordinator
ARIADNE - PARTHENOS

Piazza Ciardi 25
59100 Prato, Italy



> Il giorno 23 lug 2016, alle ore 08:41, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no> ha scritto:
> 
> Hi
> A file is nota E73 information object. It is a physical object. You may store your portrait of Martin on a punch tape (of a considerable length) or a stack of punch cards for that matter. In principle there is no difference between an object with a magnetic emulsion and a punch tape with respect to carrying information.
> 
> Yu ma also go back to the polyphone (http://www.hlxx.de/hp/polyphon.htm) which  indeed by many have been considered to be a heap of scrap metal and pieces of wood. Still it is able to store information.
> 
> Best
> Christian-Emil
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Franco
>> Niccolucci
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 6:55 PM
>> To: steads at paveprime.com
>> Cc: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
>> 
>> I recently reviewed a (bad) paper on multimedia which revamped my
>> interest on the topic. Let me tell you my doubts-
>> 
>> P62 concerns an E24 Physical Man-Made Things, together with P65 shows
>> visual item, although the latter is well known to have a slightly different
>> meaning. E.g.: a caricature on paper, Mona Lisa, a coin with Queen Elizabeth’s
>> profile, a postcard of Crete, the photo of Martin Doerr when he was 6 years
>> old (yes, Martin has been a child, but long time ago): they are all allowed to
>> P62 depict. So far, so good.
>> 
>> If today I take a digital photo of Martin Doerr, e.g. with my iphone, what I
>> produce is an E73 Information Object, stored somewhere in the iphone, in
>> the memory of my Mac where I copy it, in the iCloud where I regularly back
>> up the iphone content etc. This E73 exists as long as at least one of these
>> physical carriers (E84 Information Carrier) stores it. E84 is an E22 Man-Made
>> Object, a subclass of E24, so it is an E24 as well. As such, it is allowed to P62
>> depict.
>> 
>> Going up the E73 class genealogy, (E73 subclass of E89 subclass of E28) one
>> arrives at E28 Symbolic Object, so the file produced on my iphone is an E28,
>> which is the sister of E24, and both are distinct siblings of E71 Man-Made
>> Thing. Being immaterial, E73 is NOT allowed to depict.
>> 
>> In conclusion: if now I take a photo of Martin with a film, the film (and any
>> printout out of it) P62 depicts Martin. But if I take the same photo with my
>> iphone, what depicts Martin? Not the corresponding jpeg file E73 in the
>> iphone (or any copy of it), because E73 does not belong to the domain of P62.
>> Possibly the iphone memory where the file is stored, which as physical thing
>> inherits the P62 domain from E24, but it sounds a bit weird to say “Franco’s
>> iphone memory card depicts Martin Doerr".
>> 
>> Any solution to this asymmetry?
>> 
>> Note that both things, the film and the file, are related to the same visual
>> item “image of Martin Doerr on 22/07/2016”: but the film is allowed to P65
>> show it, the file is not.
>> 
>> Why not defining the domain of P62 as E71 Man-Made Thing, to incorporate
>> both material items, coinciding with their carrier, and immaterial items,
>> stored on a separate carrier? when we look at a painting, do we look at the
>> assemblage of canvas, pigments, etc or we look at the E36 Visual Item P65
>> shown on it? They seem to be inseparable, but as digital technology shows,
>> possibly they are not.
>> 
>> This may lead to the question: what about icloud, is it a physical thing or
>> what? It is of course made of physical disks, flash memories, cables etc, but
>> without the appropriate software all this is just a heap of scrap iron that can’t
>> store anything.
>> But let us keep this question for another thread.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance for any comment on the above concerns, they keep me
>> awake in the nights of this hot July.
>> 
>> Franco
>> 
>> 
>> Prof. Franco Niccolucci
>> Director, VAST-LAB
>> PIN - U. of Florence
>> Scientific Coordinator
>> ARIADNE - PARTHENOS
>> 
>> Piazza Ciardi 25
>> 59100 Prato, Italy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Il giorno 22 lug 2016, alle ore 15:41, Stephen Stead
>> <steads at paveprime.com> ha scritto:
>>> 
>>> Revision of Scope note:
>>> 
>>> BEFORE:-
>>> P62 depicts (is depicted by)
>>> 
>>> Domain:                               E24 Physical Man-Made Thing
>>> Range:                  E1 CRM Entity
>>> Quantification:  many to many (0,n:0,n)
>>> 
>>> Scope note:        This property identifies something that is depicted by an
>> instance of E24 Physical Man-Made Thing. Depicting is meant in the sense
>> that the surface of the E24 Physical Man-Made Thing shows, through its
>> passive optical qualities or form, a representation of the entity depicted. It
>> does not pertain to inscriptions or any other information encoding.
>>> 
>>> This property is a shortcut of the more fully developed path from E24
>> Physical Man-Made Thing through P65 shows visual item (is shown by), E36
>> Visual Item, P138 represents (has representation) to E1CRM Entity. P62.1
>> mode of depiction allows the nature of the depiction to be refined.
>>> Examples:
>>> §  The painting “La Liberté guidant le peuple” by Eugène Delacroix
>>> (E84) depicts the French “July Revolution” of 1830 (E7) §  the 20
>>> pence coin held by the Department of Coins and Medals of the British
>>> Museum under registration number 2006,1101.126 (E24) depicts Queen
>>> Elizabeth II (E21) mode of depiction Profile (E55)
>>> 
>>> In First Order Logic:
>>>                               P62(x,y) ⊃ E24(x)
>>>                               P62(x,y) ⊃ E1(y)
>>>                               P62(x,y,z) ⊃ [P62(x,y) ∧ E55(z)]
>>> 
>>> Properties:         P62.1 mode of depiction: E55 Type
>>> 
>>> AFTER:-
>>> 
>>> P62 depicts (is depicted by)
>>> 
>>> Domain:                               E24 Physical Man-Made Thing
>>> Range:                  E1 CRM Entity
>>> Quantification:  many to many (0,n:0,n)
>>> 
>>> Scope note:        This property identifies something that is depicted by an
>> instance of E24 Physical Man-Made Thing. Depicting is meant in the sense
>> that the surface of the E24 Physical Man-Made Thing shows, through its
>> passive optical qualities or form, a representation of the entity depicted.
>> "Passive optical qualities" specifically excludes anything that actively
>> transmits light. It does not pertain to inscriptions or any other information
>> encoding.
>>> 
>>> This property is a shortcut of the more fully developed path from E24
>> Physical Man-Made Thing through P65 shows visual item (is shown by), E36
>> Visual Item, P138 represents (has representation) to E1CRM Entity. P62.1
>> mode of depiction allows the nature of the depiction to be refined.
>>> Examples:
>>> §  The painting “La Liberté guidant le peuple” by Eugène Delacroix
>>> (E84) depicts the French “July Revolution” of 1830 (E7) §  the 20
>>> pence coin held by the Department of Coins and Medals of the British
>>> Museum under registration number 2006,1101.126 (E24) depicts Queen
>>> Elizabeth II (E21) mode of depiction Profile (E55)
>>> 
>>> In First Order Logic:
>>>                               P62(x,y) ⊃ E24(x)
>>>                               P62(x,y) ⊃ E1(y)
>>>                               P62(x,y,z) ⊃ [P62(x,y) ∧ E55(z)]
>>> 
>>> Properties:         P62.1 mode of depiction: E55 Type
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Stephen Stead
>>> Director
>>> Paveprime Ltd
>>> 35 Downs Court Rd
>>> Purley, Surrey
>>> UK, CR8 1BF
>>> Tel +44 20 8668 3075
>>> Fax +44 20 8763 1739
>>> Mob +44 7802 755 013
>>> E-mail steads at paveprime.com
>>> LinkedIn Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/in/steads
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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