[Crm-sig] new CIDOC CRM issue

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Tue Mar 24 21:03:14 EET 2015

Dear Simon,

Please keep in mind that we do not carry out linguistic interpretations 
in the
CRM. How we define a class, here "feature", is only determined by an 
behavior that allows useful conclusions in the target discourse.

Michael Jackson's nose was indeed immobile with respect to his head, 
just as mine.
Immobility can only be seen wrt to the surrounding matter. The building 
is just immobile
wrt the planet/landmass. If we talk about immobility here, immobility 
wrt the planet
should be regarded as a special case of immobility with respect to a 
larger thing.

A door is typically a mechanical, removable component of a building. I'd 
call it an object.

I think we agree that the doorway, regardless of its material, is a 
surface pattern of the building structure built for a certain purpose, 
or found by chance in the environment (a cave home..). I'd not define it 
by stop digging, but by functionality of form.
In the current definition of Physical Feature, this is comprised, as all 

I'd argue that the salient feature of Physical Feature for us is that 
removing implies destruction of material substance around it (cutting 
etc.), and that it travels together with a larger mobile/movable/moving 
body (be it the planet) in a certain position with respect to it. These 
would be relevant conclusions for the historical discourse we could rely 
on. For instance, the Abu Simbel temple, a cave,
was cut out of the surround rock by going sufficiently deeperinto the 




On 24/3/2015 6:49 μμ, Simon Spero wrote:
> I believe the salient, er,  feature, of a man made feature is that it 
> is formed by modification of some physically existing thing, and 
> cannot exist entirely separately from that substrate.
> Immobility is not the defining characteristic (e.g. the examples of 
> Michael Jackson's nose in physical feature / man made feature).
> [I am not entirely sure how robust the definitions are; the examples 
> of door and doorway have some concealed metaphysical assumptions.  A 
> door may not be a feature of a building, but it is a feature of the 
> wood or stone it was made from. A doorway is a hole, and the first 
> rule of ontologies of holes is "stop digging". The holonyms of door 
> handles are tricky enough.]
> Casati, Roberto and Varzi, Achille, "Holes", /The Stanford 
> Encyclopedia of Philosophy /(Spring 2014 Edition), Edward N. 
> Zalta (ed.), URL = 
> <http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/spr2014/entries/holes/>.
> Simon
> On Mar 24, 2015 9:19 AM, "Athina Kritsotaki" <athinak at ics.forth.gr 
> <mailto:athinak at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>     New CIDOC CRM issue
>     Dear all,
>     Immobile buildings (graves, rock cut churches, chambers and generally
>     immobile monuments) are defined as features since they cannot be
>     separated
>     from earth and the surrounding matter. The question is should we
>     regard
>     all the immobile buildings as E25 Man-made Feature? If the answer is
>     positive,  at that case it is contrary to the examples of the
>     Coliseum and
>     the palace of Knossos, which in CRM are referred as instances of E22
>     Man-Made Object and E19 Physical Object respectively.
>     So, think about this
>     Regards,
>     Athina Kritsotaki
>     ----------------------------
>     Athina Kritsotaki
>     Information System Laboratory
>     Institute of Computer Science
>     Foundation of Research & Technology
>     e-mail:athinak at ics.forth.gr <mailto:e-mail%3Aathinak at ics.forth.gr>
>     Tel: 2810 391639
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  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
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