[Crm-sig] Issue about P82 and P81 usage

Jean-Baptiste Pressac Jean-Baptiste.Pressac at univ-brest.fr
Thu Jun 18 10:29:35 EEST 2015

I am an computer-scientist working with two researchers on a 
prosopographic database of people who contributed to literature in 
a Celtic language of Bretagne (France) and I am interested to use the 
CIDOC-CRM (in particular FRBRoo) to share our data in RDF format.

The database stores informations like the dates of birth, death, 
participation to groups of all kinds, studies... Informations where 
fuzzy times are legion. I read the PDF document /How to implement CRM 
Time in RDF/ (response to issue 164) but I need to clarify the use of 
P81a, P81b, P82a and P82b.

I understood that any "date" is considered as a duration in the CRM. 
Even a birth occurring on 25Th of July 1815 should be considered as an 
event occurring between for instance 25-7-1815 at 0:00 and 25-7-1815 at 
24:59. But in that case, what could be the values of P81a, P81b, P82a 
and P82b ? If we don't take the hours and minutes into account, should 
we consider the following: P82a = P81a = P81b = P82b = 25-7-1815 ? Or 
should we consider that we only *know *P82a and P82b (and don't know 
anything about a narrower duration, thus P81) and could only declare the 

P82a = P82b = 25-7-1815
P82a = 25-7-1815 at 0:00
P82b = 25-7-1815 at 23:59

If I take the example of the event (p.5 of the /Definition of the CIDOC 
Conceptual Reference Model/) "my birth day celebration 28-6-1995 (E7)" 
and guess that you invited your friends at 17:00 and the last one left 
your house /around/ 23:00, should we say that the minimum known temporal 
extent is between 28-6-1995 17:00 and 28-6-1995 22:45 and the maximum 
know temporal extent is between 28-6-1995 17:00 and 28-6-1995 23:15, thus:

P82a = P81a = 28-6-1995 17:00
P81b = 28-6-1995 22:45 (23:00 arbitrarily subtracted with 15 minutes)
P82b = 28-6-1995 23:15 (23:00 arbitrarily added with 15 minutes)

Another example: An author is know to have been elected to a club during 
February and March 1754 and to have left the club in 1761. Should we 
declare a E85 Joining with a E52 Time Span characterized by:

P82a = 01-02-1754
P82b = 31-12-1754

And a E86 Leaving with a E52 Time Span characterized by:

P82a = 01-01-1761
P82b = 31-12-1761

Last example: If we are talking about a war which started between 
February and March 1756 and finished in 1773, should we declare an E7 
Activity with a E52 Time Span characterized by:

P82a = 01-02-1756
P81a = 31-04-1756
P81b = 31-12-1773
P82b = 31-12-1773

Thanks for your help,

Jean-Baptiste Pressac

Traitement et analyse de bases de données
Production et diffusion de corpus numériques

Centre de Recherche Bretonne et Celtique
Unité mixte de service (UMS) 3554
20 rue Duquesne
CS 93837
29238 Brest cedex 3

tel : +33 (0)2 98 01 68 95
fax : +33 (0)2 98 01 63 93

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