[Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Wed Aug 12 13:00:46 EEST 2015


Dear Simon,

Interesting thought. I'd say however, I am not confused by this. In my 
opinion, the problem lays in the human mind, which tries to stretch 
abstractions over incompatible evidence.

 From a CRM point of view, every copy of such a process is an individual 
physical object. Why should we call
it a Manifestation, or even something more abstract, if it does not fit 
to the book market process this concept was designed for?

If there is an individual artistic contribution each time (as I 
mentioned in my last message), then we talk about new features on the 
plate each time, which correspond to a new symbolic content 
("Expression"). There are two cases: Either it is an overall derivative, 
or there is an "incorporation" of content by virtue of the fixed 
features on the plate. So, I'd say the individually colored copy 
"incorporates" the plate optical content and adds a new creation process 
to it.

The question of second order logic arises when we want to talk about 
types of types of things which inherit fixed properties from their 
class, such as the number of pages of a book.
If regarding such copies is better modelled as instances of a type or 
not is for me the primary question, not the kind of logic to be used. 
The fixed features on the individually colored plate would hardly be 
expanded into discrete properties, besides itself being on the plate.

Also, to my understanding, the second order logic features needed to 
describe inheritance of properties from types of types or classes is 
completely decidable and no technical problem except for the current 
reluctance of IT to think in such terms ;-) .
Interesting are the requirements which kind of logic cultural-historical 
data need, rather than, which logic to avoid. From CRM-SIG point of 
view, we require since a long time more powerful forms of logic than 
standard DL.

What do you think?

Martin


On 10/8/2015 9:02 μμ, Simon Spero wrote:
>
> To add a bit more confusion to the discussion,  one can consider 
> Blake's hand printed books.
> Every plate was coloured individually, and differently, and are some 
> scholars consider each copy to be a distinct [thing more abstract than 
> Manifestation].
>
> There is some justification for this,  as there is distinct 
> intellectual content (produced by the original author, even). This 
> seems to fall into the awkward place in FRBR where expression and work 
> overlap.
>
> This happens a lot in different places in FRBR;  it's difficult to 
> handle  without using a second order logic,  or at least a first order 
> logic which allows for quantifying over known predicates.
>
> Simon
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 5:48 AM  <patrick.le-boeuf at bnf.fr 
> <mailto:patrick.le-boeuf at bnf.fr>> wrote:
>
>     Hi everyone,
>     I completely agree with Martin. There is no point in dealing with
>     art prints as continuing resources. PRESSoo is inadequate in this
>     context. I think there is enough stuff in a combination of FRBRoo
>     and CIDOC CRM to cope with at least the main issues raised by art
>     prints. Surely an extension of FRBRoo could bring more refinements
>     in the treatment of such products, but FRBRoo has to remain a
>     high-level conceptual model.
>     Best wishes,
>     Patrick
>
>
>
>     De : martin <martin at ics.forth.gr <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>
>     A : crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>     Date : 09/08/2015 16:11
>     Objet : Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
>     Envoyé par : "Crm-sig" <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr
>     <mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>     Hi Jim,
>
>     A serialization character of prints is not so obvious to me. The
>     reworking of print plates appears to me
>     to be a rather peculiar process of modification of a material
>     object, not so much an editorial series.
>     The actual printing process is either a mechanical one, or a
>     combination of manual creative work and
>     mechanical work, which I'd see more similar to book printing on
>     one side, and mold-based techniques,
>     such as in ceramics or bronze?
>
>     Best,
>
>     Martin
>
>     On 7/8/2015 7:05 μμ, Jim Salmons wrote:
>     Regine, C.E.S., and Martin,
>
>     In the context of FRBRoo as a DSL/extension of #cidocCRM with
>     particular reference to the “serialization” character of print
>     production, it may be useful to consider the ISSN.org’s
>     contribution of PRESSoo, an extension/harmonization that brings
>     serialization and continuation semantics to FRBRoo.
>
>     The reference document is found here:
>
>     _http://www.issn.org/the-centre-and-the-network/our-partners-and-projects/pressoo/_
>
>     and Patrick Le Boeuf’s presentation on behalf of the ISSN working
>     group which developed this valuable contribution is here:
>
>     _http://www.slideshare.net/patrickleboeuf/20130719-pres-soo_
>
>
>     Happy-Healthy Vibes,
>         -: Jim :-
>
>         Jim Salmons
>         Twitter: @Jim_Salmons, @FactMiners, @Softalk_Apple
>     _www.FactMiners.org_ <http://www.factminers.org/>(Open Source
>     #Play2Learn game community)
>     _www.SoftalkApple.com_ <http://www.softalkapple.com/>(first
>     FactMiners museum/archive project)
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Crm-sig mailing list
>     _Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr_ <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>     _http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig_
>
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     --------------------------------------------------------------
>     Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>     Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>               |  Email: _martin at ics.forth.gr_
>     <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>|
>                       |
>                   Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>                   Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                    Institute of Computer Science                |
>       Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
>                       |
>                   N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>                    GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>                       |
>                 Web-site: _http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl_          |
>     --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Crm-sig mailing list
>     Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>     http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Exposition */Piaf
>     <http://www.bnf.fr/fr/evenements_et_culture/anx_expositions/f.piaf.html>/*
>     - du 14 avril 2015 au 23 ao?t 2015 - BnF - Fran?ois-Mitterrand |
>     *Derniers jours*
>
>     *Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement.*
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Crm-sig mailing list
>     Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
>     http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig


-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
                                                              |
              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
--------------------------------------------------------------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/pipermail/crm-sig/attachments/20150812/7152fc8e/attachment.html>


More information about the Crm-sig mailing list