[Crm-sig] Document for approval

Georg Hohmann georg.hohmann at gmail.com
Tue Aug 12 17:39:33 EEST 2014

Dear Dominic,

before answering to your e-mail I would like to point to the fact that
your e-mails do not reach the mailinglist.
See http://lists.ics.forth.gr/pipermail/crm-sig/2014-August/thread.html

My guess is that you are posting your messages with sender-adresses
that are not registered.


2014-08-12 15:01 GMT+02:00 Dominic Oldman <doint at oldman.me.uk>:
> Dear Georg,
> That's a no then. ;-)   However, I can now see more clearly your issues, so
> thank you for this additional email.
> The paper makes it very clear that CRM can be implemented using different
> models and is independent of technology.  I am happy to make this a stronger
> statement if you feel that it needs it. In Section 5 is states - "It is
> independent of any technical implementation framework".
> The use of RDF in this paper is simply as a device for showing examples.
> "Real" examples are important and users of the document have asked for them,
> and actually asked for more examples to be inserted. Whenever I make
> presentations to the Directors of the BM they ask for concrete examples. I
> am not sure why people are reluctant to provide them and why you wouldn't.
> Commonly, because museums and other CH organisations are slowly entering the
> linked data world, people want to know what the connection is between CRM
> and linked data. It would be a mistake to try and show many different
> examples using different schemas in a Primer (I accept that you wouldn't
> provide any examples but I will come on to that later). This means that all
> the information that managers hear about linked data from all sorts of
> different sources can be associated with and have a connection with CRM
> information (from the Primer). This is an important point because if people
> don't understand that there is a connection then it might not be
> included/mentioned in organisational digital strategy policies that include
> a linked data strategy. It is therefore, without making any recommendations,
> extremely expedient to use linked data as the representational example and
> to make this valid association while still stating that it is neutral as to
> technology - which it is (we currently have BM CRM data in two different
> models one of which is not RDF). RDF just becomes a vehicle for showing how
> it works in practice. One aim of the primer should be to get people to use
> the CRM. What is the most likely way that they may use it?
> The common factor underlying some of your criticisms (for which I am very
> grateful that you have taken the time to provide) seem to imply a reluctance
> to give a non-technical audience some technical information. The idea of the
> Primer is not to teach people RDF or linked data but to show that CRM has
> real practical application and show that it is not just a theoretical and
> conceptual thing - something still assumed by some people. I am not sure why
> there is a problem with non-technical people seeing technical examples. This
> division is often cited as one of the reasons why the Digital Humanities is
> not progressing as it was envisaged. Digital Humanities needs Digital
> Humanists/Curators. For example, Unsworth 2002 statement.
> "Those representations — ontologies, schemas, knowledge representations,
> call them what you will — should be produced by people trained in the
> humanities. Producing them is a discipline that requires training in the
> humanities, but also in elements of mathematics, logic, engineering, and
> computer science"
> Many technical people get very upset about showing supposedly
> “non-technical” people, technical examples. However, if we don't start
> introducing our curators (and humanists generally) to these things and
> continue to keep this knowledge separate, how can they participate in the
> discussions and the work more fully?The examples are very basic in any case,
> but why shouldn't curators (I am a curator) take an interest in some
> computer science and technology? Isn't that what Unsworth's quote is saying.
> This happens in other disciplines.
> There is no particular hurry or deadline. It would be good to have a Primer
> though and some people have got together in their own spare time to
> contribute some time towards producing one. That must be a good thing, and
> something that we can all be positive about.
> The CRM Lab was constituted at the CRM-SIG and has terms of reference which
> are on the site.  The link is here
> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/docs/29th-meeting-presentations/CRMLab%20Terms%20of%20Reference09.docx
> . The aims include;
> 1. Education of end users.
> 2. Implementation of CRM within new projects.
> 3. Specification and development of new tools to support the use of the CRM.
> 4. Specification of processes of good practice
> The Primer was an agreed output from one of the SIG meetings.
> Thanks very much for your comments and I will certainly attend to some of
> the issues that you have kindly spotted.
> Cheers,
> Dominic

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