[Crm-sig] groups and relations between persons

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Tue Aug 5 15:11:39 EEST 2014


On 5/8/2014 2:28 μμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote:
> I think we should accept that ethnographical collections and others have a need for expressing relations between persons. To make the CRM simple we should model a schematic way to express such. A solution could be to say that these relations are defined by humans and create a relation class somewhere under conceptual objects.
Good idea. In case of associated laws, norms etc. one could specialize 
plans in the wider sense, plans how people should
behave.

Does anybody on this list have an opinion about if we should develop an 
extension for social relations?

Do we have any anthropologist among us?

M
> C-E
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of martin
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 12:33 PM
>> To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] groups and relations between persons
>>
>> Anthropologically, there seem to be an immense number of variants of
>> kinship, as George Lakoff describes.
>> So, the challenge for us is to find the generalizations that would be relevant
>> for recall in an intergated information system. What would be a reasonable
>> distinction in a query? When would be the answer set too large?
>> I read that all Chinese with last name Wang (or another) assume a sort of
>> kinship, of "we". Where are the limits to "minorities" ? Are there reasonable
>> delimiters to more immediate forms of kinship?
>>
>> Could we classify social relations by
>> * kinship & kinship equivalent (like adoption, marriage),
>>          - immediate ??
>>          - relevant for social interaction
>>          - spiritual/political relevance
>> * by business & interest groups,
>> * by acquaintance&neighborhood,
>> * by employment
>> * by dependency of power (liege, slavery, military) ????
>>
>> Which of these could appear as a selection in a query?
>> Do we have research questions and queries for prosopography and other
>> social relations?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> On 5/8/2014 9:54 πμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote:
>>> Dear Detlev,
>>> The agrelon demonstrates clearly that there is a lot of possible relations. It
>> could be interesting to see the set of relations if one tried to model the
>> traditional peasant family in Russia. Traditionally there is a very large numbers
>> of terms for describing the relations in the extended family.
>>> C-E
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of
>>>> Detlev Balzer
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:11 AM
>>>> To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] groups and relations between persons
>>>>
>>>> Dear Christian-Emil,
>>>>
>>>> by the way, a more modest approach to prosopography (compared to
>>>> snapdrgn) has been taken here:
>>>>
>>>> http://d-nb.info/standards/elementset/agrelon.owl
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, this hasn't yet made it beyond the proposal stage. It
>>>> may, however, serve as an example of what kinds of relationships are
>>>> considered important in the library sector.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Detlev
>>>>
>>>> Am 04.08.2014 um 16:32 schrieb Christian-Emil Smith Ore:
>>>>> Snapdrgn and the associated projects for prosopographical
>>>>> information
>>>> (prosopographies) can be a case study and serve as a source of
>>>> information/evidence. It is only a 2-3 years project. However, it can
>>>> be a task to see how to map  the snapdrgn ontology (which is
>>>> expressed in rdf(s) I
>>>> believe) to CRM. If we cannot do that, CRM needs adjustment or
>>>> amendments. I will try to make the mapping and study the matter further.
>>>>> C-E
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> martin
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:31 PM
>>>>>> To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] groups and relations between persons
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Christian-Emil,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could quite well imagine having a sort of more general Group
>>>>>> describing a social bond that would not involve members potentially
>>>>>> "acting as one" or one speaking for them.
>>>>>> In that case, that Group would no more be "one Actor".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would you regard http://snapdrgn.net/ as a good practical scope? Do
>>>>>> you have other sources to map from?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we have a practical scope, we can model things.
>>>>>> Do you propose an amendment to the CRM or a "social" extension?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/8/2014 2:38 μμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>> This is not a part of  the discussion in April about groups and
>>>>>>> aggregations. It is groups as a way to model relations between
>>>>>>> persons
>>>>>> (actors).  I gave a presentation about CRM and prosopography at the
>>>>>> DH2014 workshop "Ontologies for prosopography" (see
>>>>>> http://edd.uio.no/artiklar/DH2014/C-E_Ore_prosopography.pdf ).
>>>>>>> The current CRM way to model relations between persons is to use
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> E74
>>>>>> Group. A relation is modeled as  an instance of E74 Group and the
>>>>>> type of relation is expressed via P2 has Type. In a non-symmetric
>>>>>> relation each person is linked via 'P107 is current or former
>>>>>> member of '  specified by 'P107.1 kind of member'. This is all
>>>>>> according to the scope
>>>> note in CRM.
>>>>>>> One may note that an instance of E74 Group used in this way
>>>>>>> represents an
>>>>>> instance, an n-tuple,  of a relation (seen as a set of n-tuples as
>>>>>> in mathematics or in relational databases). The relation is
>>>>>> identified by the type of the E74 group.
>>>>>>> I was a little skeptical when this way of modeling relations where
>>>>>>> introduced
>>>>>> in CRM. My first thought was to define explicit, typed properties.
>>>>>> After studying how for example the SNAP (Standards for Networking
>>>>>> Ancient Prosopographies, http://snapdrgn.net/) tries to cope with
>>>>>> their at least 65 identified relations between persons by
>>>>>> introducing a relation class in RDFS, I realized that the CRM solution is
>> very good.
>>>>>>> Since this is not meant to be a statement about me and CRM, I will
>>>>>>> raise two
>>>>>> issues which I think need some discussion.
>>>>>>> 1) E74 Group scope note "This class comprises any gatherings or
>>>>>> organizations of two or more people that act collectively or in a
>>>>>> similar way due to any form of unifying relationship.[...]"  Will
>>>>>> all related persons fulfill the requirement " act collectively or
>>>>>> in a similar way due to any form of unifying relationship", that
>>>>>> is, is
>>>>>> E74 Group too narrow to be used to model all kind of relations
>>>>>> between
>>>> persons like the ones we find in prosopography?
>>>>>>> 2) The modeling of relations by 'P107 is current or former member of '
>>>>>> specified by 'P107.1 kind of member': If this is to be implemented
>>>>>> in RDF(S), should we in the CRM definition recommend or at list
>>>>>> hint to a good solution to implement the .1 E55 Type properties?
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Christian-Emil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>    Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>>>    Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>>>                                  |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>>>>                                                                |
>>>>>>                  Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>>>                  Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>>>                   Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>>>      Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>>>                                                                |
>>>>>>                  N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>>>>>                   GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>>>>>                                                                |
>>>>>>                Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Detlev Balzer, Mecklenburger Landstr. 5, D-23570 Lübeck Tel
>>>> (+49/0)4502- 8896495, Mobil (+49)0173-6231233 PGP Fingerprint 8E5F
>>>> DCBD 2FC0 4058 86C2 3FEC 8D55 ACCD 2D71 8095
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>>
>> --
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>   Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>                                                               |
>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>                                                               |
>>                 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>                  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>                                                               |
>>               Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
                                                              |
              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
--------------------------------------------------------------



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