[Crm-sig] Issue 230 Co-reference

Dominic Oldman DOLDMAN at britishmuseum.org
Tue Apr 1 11:11:04 EEST 2014

I don't understand this properly despite reading this email quite a few times.

I have some text contained in a book or on an object that refers to or is about a city in Bavaria called Passau.

I have a local knowledge of this place that I have my own identifier for. I can therefore co reference the text to my identifier.

Someone else has an identifier for Passau but I don't know for sure whether it is taking about the same thing. It is outside my local knowledge.

Is the suggestion that P155 should only be used for co referencing local knowledge not external uri outside local knowledge.

Thanks and apologies if this is obvious.


PS. Also, if I use Getty places in my local knowledge base I assume that I can say that this is local knowledge even though it is an external uri.

Dominic Oldman
Deputy Head of Information Systems, IS Development Manager,
ResearchSpace Principal Investigator,
British Museum
Sent from Blackberry: 07980865309

----- Original Message -----
From: Øyvind Eide [mailto:lister at oeide.no]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 12:27 AM
To: crm-sig <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 230 Co-reference

On 30. mars 2014, at 21:25, martin wrote:

> Dear Oeyvind,
> On 29/3/2014 10:13 πμ, Øyvind Eide wrote:
>> It is quite possible that I do not understand what you say about P155. So this is my understanding of it:
>> Co-reference assignment is about making explicit a fact which is assumed by the one making the assignment to be true.
> Yes.
>> An example:
>> I claim that the word "Passau" on my train ticket and the place referred to by "city where the first DHd conference took place" both refer to the physical place Passau. If I make this statement in an information system, I would say:
>> E91 Co-Reference Assignment P155 has co-reference target P53 Passau.
>> (+ the other properties)
>> The P155 points to the thing in the world to which the person making the co-reference assignment believes the references to point to.
> Yes. How do I know that the URI (or whatever the range instance of P155 is) points to the Passau
> I ment when I make this statement? This is why I said,
> "The range of P155 can be interpreted as a URI (or whatever identity) used within the same knowledge base as the instance of E91. Then, it would correspond to a co-reference between some text element and the knowledge base in which we implement the CRM, the "local truth".
> It means, the Co-Reference statement shares the same reality (my understanding of the world )
> as the identifier for "Passau" at p155. In other words, I know by sure how to relate this identifier to
> the City in Bavaria. It could however be, that I refer to a URI for "Passau", which has been imported
> in my knowledge base, and indeed was used for another Passau in another knowledge base which coined the URI. Then, my coref statement would be misleading. Indeed, it would be yet another co-reference, but this time to the use of a URI within a knowledge base, rather than a word within a text.
> All the magic is in your phrase: "The P155 points to the thing in the world". Whose world?
> Therefore, I'd suggest that P155 must point to an identifier of something the person who makes the
> co-ref statement has an unambiguous notion of reality about, either a thing in the world by use
> of an identifier the person "knows" to interpret, or pointing to a hypothetical thing "the thing referred in these two texts, whatever it is". In the latter case, it has an identity condition based on the text.
> In any case, the scope note must make clear what difference is between P155 the other links in terms
> of knowing. Therefore I proposed a "local shared truth" for P155.
> Opinions?

Dear Martin,

I think I understand now. But to make it clear if I do:

in a normal reference situation, for instance (to go back to the situation of the example in CRM):

E82 Hans Jæger (the name on the title page of the book) P131 identfies E21 Hans Jæger (the historical person)

In that case the problem of reference you talk about does not apply.

But in the situation:

E91 Co-Reference Assignment P155 has co-reference target E21 Hans Jæger (the historical person)

the problem does arise.

The difference between the two situations is that in the former (P131) the reference is expressed in the model, whereas in the latter (P155) the references is expressed in a statement recorded in the model.


The questions is: do we need to record what the person making the co-reference statement believes the propositional objects refer to? The reference from each of them will/should/may be recorded in the system throught systems such as the various "identifies" properties. 


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