[Crm-sig] Persona ?

Dan Matei Dan at cimec.ro
Wed Sep 25 15:28:15 EEST 2013


Thanks Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: martin <martin at ics.forth.gr>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 22:42:18 +0300



> In FRBRoo, after a long discussion, the FRBR-CRM harmonization group
> came to the conviction that the concept of a "persona" is not clear
> enough and necessary for the kinds of information systems CRM and FRBR
> aim at. Rather, the concept of possibly role-dependent name use (F52
> Name Use Activity) and modelling offices and other kinds of roles as
> special kinds of Group (with one member at a time) appeared as being
> sufficient.

Sorry. I had a previous version of FRBRoo document (sorry...) so I missed the discussion about personae on p. 18-19.


> 
> See for instance:
> E74 Group
> Subclass of: 	E39 Actor
> Superclass of: 	E40 Legal Body
> 
> Scope note:	This class comprises any gatherings or organizations of two 
> or more people that act collectively or in a similar way due to any form 
> of unifying relationship. In the wider sense this class also comprises 
> official positions which used to be regarded in certain contexts as one 
> actor, independent of the current holder of the office, such as the 
> president of a country.

Yes, but my interpretation of:

"In the wider sense this class also comprises official positions which used to be regarded in certain contexts as one actor, independent of
the current holder of the office, such as the president of a country."

was that "the president of a country" is an E74_Group as an abstract position, i.e. "independent of the current holder of the office".

So when I want to say:

<URI(Kennedy as president of US)> <P11i_participated_in> <URI(speech at the June 26 1963 Berlin meeting)> <P94_has_created> <URI("Ich Bin
Ein Berliner" speech)>

I'm not comfortable with:

<URI(Kennedy as president of US)> <isA> < E74_Group>


On the other hand, I'm fine with:

<URI(Mozart & Da Ponte)> <P11i_participated_in> <URI(the 1790 creation of "Così fan tutte")> <P94_has_created> <URI("Così fan tutte")>

and

<URI(Mozart & Da Ponte)> <isA> < E74_Group>

or

<URI(Ellery Queen)> <P11i_participated_in> <URI(the 1931 writing of "The Duch...")> <P94_has_created> <URI("The Dutch Shoe Mystery")>

and

<URI(Ellery Queen)> <isA> < E74_Group>


 
> F52 Name Use Activity
> 
> Subclass of:	E13 Attribute Assignment
> Scope note:	This class comprises periods of continuous use of a specific 
> instance of E41 Appellation for a particular instance of E1 CRM Entity 
> by an E39 Actor. It includes in particular the use of the name by its 
> carrier. Characteristically, actors performing an activity may choose a 
> particular appellation for themselves in the context of this activity. 
> Such cases should be modelled by additionally classifying these 
> activities as instances of F52 Name Use Activity.

Hmm. Modelling:

<URI(Charles Lutwidge Dodgson)> <P11i_participated_in> <URI(the 1865 writing of "Alice's ...")> <P94_has_created> <URI("Alice's Adventures
in Wonderland")>

<URI(Using the pseudonym "Lewis Carroll" when authoring works of fiction)> <R63_named> <URI(Charles Lutwidge Dodgson)>

<URI(Using the pseudonym "Lewis Carroll" when authoring works of fiction)> <R64_used_name> <URI("Lewis Carroll")>

is a bit contortionistic to me.


> 
> On 24/9/2013 10:33 πμ, Øyvind Eide wrote:

Dear Øyvind

I did not get your message ! Fortunatelly I found it here !

> > Have you looked at what FRBRoo has to say about personae, e.g.,
> > section 1.3 on page 18-19 in
> > http://www.cidoc-crm.org/docs/frbr_oo//frbr_docs/FRBRoo_V2.0_draft_2013May.pdf
> > ?

Only now (shame on me !)

> > I am not sure I fully understand how you would model such a Persona -
> > Bill Clinton is still Bill Clinton (in a realist sense) even when he
> > acts in the role of president?
> > Could you give an example of a problem you would need the new
> > subclass to solve?

My above "Ich bin I Berliner" example ...

An official document signed by Clinton with his presidential hat on...

Cheers,

Dan




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