[Crm-sig] Persona ?

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Fri Oct 11 20:18:44 EEST 2013

Hi Vladimir,

On 11/10/2013 12:48 μμ, Vladimir Alexiev wrote:
> The case that Dan describes is modeled quite often in IT: in any business system that deals with staff.

Not really. President of the United States is not a job description.
> It is standardly modeled as a Position, being an association between Person and Organization; and having a Role, duration, etc.
> CERIF generalizes this greatly, by modeling associations between any two core entities in a generic way.
> They use this to describe e.g. departments (Org-Org),
> positions, temporary assignments (Person-Org),
> boss, supervisor, reporting lines, collaborators (Person-Person),
> project leaders, staff, reviewers (Person-Project),
> etc etc.
> IMHO the modeling of Position as a group (singleton at any given time) is neither straightforward nor completely adequate.

I did not say that a "position" is a "group". That's a misunderstanding. 
I spoke about "official positions which used to be regarded in certain 
contexts as one actor, independent of the current holder of the office." 
in one of my last e-mails.

What you describe above is modelled in the CRM exactly in the same way 
as you refer to about CERIF:

P107 has current or former member (is current or former member of): E39 
		(P107.1 kind of member: E55 Type)

I said an "office" is a group. That's a different thing.

> E.g. how do you:

> - record that Obama acted in his capacity of US President?

If this is not explicit, he can be in legal trouble!
Indeed some office carriers do not understand the difference, but that 
is another issue...Imagine Obama buys a car for his daughter and signs 
as The President!

This is a legal question. The reason to regard an office of this type as 
a group, and not as a "persona" was that

1) acting in the capacity of the office is distinct from acting as a 
private person in the sense of law. This is evident in signatures, press 
conferences, speeches and roles in representation of the state or what 
the office represents.

2) The decisions and other relationships to the "official" acts of the 
office carrier persist independent from the carrier for this office.

Therefore, the office as such, and not its carriers, represents a legal 
persistent entity with the capacity of acting intentionally as one 
individual. This conforms with the definition of a Group. If an office 
is not defined in that way, it's just a job position.

(The persona, for Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, was the social face the 
individual presented to the world—"a kind of mask, designed on the one 
hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to 
conceal the true nature of the individual. Wikipedia)



> - connect the US to the position of US President?
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