[Crm-sig] Persona ?

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Wed Oct 9 14:13:20 EEST 2013


Dear Oeyvind,

The scope note of E74 Group says:

"This class comprises any gatherings or organizations of two or more 
people that act collectively or in a similar way due to any form of 
unifying relationship. In the wider sense this class also comprises 
official positions which used to be regarded in certain contexts as one 
actor, independent of the current holder of the office, such as the 
president of a country. "

So, clearly ,
<URI(president of US)> <instance of> < E74_Group>,
<URI (Kennedy)> <instance of> <E21 Person>
<URI (Kennedy)> P107i is current or former member of:<URI(president of US)>

"President of the US " is the "persona' of Kennedy in this case.

I understand that you are not comfortable with calling the president a 
Group, but CRM classes are not defined by labels, but scope notes. Any 
label is a compromise :). The question is, if the class allows for the 
right inferences on the formal properties.

You are right: "we are talking about two somewhat different phenomena 
modelled in the same way". This is deliberate. If this can be done 
without contradiction, then, philosophically speaking, we conclude that 
there is a hidden, more general concept behind in our mind, which we 
normally have no word for, and define this in our ontology. Then, for 
the centuries to follow, we can try to find the best label...;)

Best,

Martin


On 9/10/2013 9:17 πμ, Øyvind Eide wrote:
> Dear Dan,
>
> Just to make sure that I fully understand the problem posed in the examples you give, I will ask rather naively:
>
> On 25. sep. 2013, at 14:28, Dan Matei wrote:
> ...
>> So when I want to say:
>>
>> <URI(Kennedy as president of US)> <P11i_participated_in> <URI(speech at the June 26 1963 Berlin meeting)> <P94_has_created> <URI("Ich Bin
>> Ein Berliner" speech)>
>>
>> I'm not comfortable with:
>>
>> <URI(Kennedy as president of US)> <isA> < E74_Group>
>>
>>
>> On the other hand, I'm fine with:
>>
>> <URI(Mozart & Da Ponte)> <P11i_participated_in> <URI(the 1790 creation of "Così fan tutte")> <P94_has_created> <URI("Così fan tutte")>
>>
>> and
>>
>> <URI(Mozart & Da Ponte)> <isA> < E74_Group>
>>
>> or
>>
>> <URI(Ellery Queen)> <P11i_participated_in> <URI(the 1931 writing of "The Duch...")> <P94_has_created> <URI("The Dutch Shoe Mystery")>
>>
>> and
>>
>> <URI(Ellery Queen)> <isA> < E74_Group>
> ...
>>>> I am not sure I fully understand how you would model such a Persona -
>>>> Bill Clinton is still Bill Clinton (in a realist sense) even when he
>>>> acts in the role of president?
>>>> Could you give an example of a problem you would need the new
>>>> subclass to solve?
>>
>> My above "Ich bin I Berliner" example ...
>>
>> An official document signed by Clinton with his presidential hat on...
>
> Is this the difference between
>
> 1. Groups who actually work together - not in the sense of detailling how often they meet etc., but they create something specific (such as a work) together so they work *at the same time*, and
>
> 2. Groups who are abstraction over persons filling an office *one after the other in time*, so they cannot work together in the same sense as 1?
>
> If so, we are talking about two somewhat different phenomena modelled in the same way. Do I understand correctly that this is the rationale for your suggested persona element, to be used in case 2?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Øyvind
>
>
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>


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