[Crm-sig] problem of formulating queries is SPARQL it has transferred the old relational paradigm onto the graph structure?

Dominic Oldman DOLDMAN at thebritishmuseum.ac.uk
Fri May 25 10:24:50 EEST 2012


Marco,

The search interfaces we are currently developing will be much better than relational ones but the practical reality is that Sparql is one of the more limiting factors when trying to make the systems accessible. It does seem a bit odd than in releasing us from the shackles of RDMS that we model the query language on them. 

At  some point those projects developing user applications should get together to discuss their practical experiences. But I don't think we need to be insecure about questioning things which is fundamental to progress and ultimately crucial in building confidence in what we are doing. If we didn't question ourselves who would trust us?

Dominic





 
Dominic Oldman
Deputy Head of Information Systems, IS Development Manager,
ResearchSpace Principal Investigator,
British Museum
Sent from Blackberry: 07980865309

----- Original Message -----
From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr <crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>
To: martin <martin at ics.forth.gr>
Cc: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr <crm-sig at ics.forth.gr>
Sent: Thu May 24 20:19:36 2012
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] problem of formulating queries is SPARQL it has transferred the old relational paradigm onto the graph structure?

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 3:15 PM, martin <martin at ics.forth.gr> wrote:
> Sure, Marco,
>
> I did NOT question SPARQL as an implementation means, even though there are
> very relevant
> and intuitive second order queries that SPARQL cannot answer. I question
> SPARQL as a human-computer
> interface.

And that would be appropriate I would say, but the formulation in the
paper is more fundamental and questions SPARQL as query language for
the Semantic Web in my reading.

>
> Cheers,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On 24/5/2012 9:42 μμ, Marco Neumann wrote:
>>
>> Martin,
>>
>> sure, I can see the provocation and obviously fell for it. But you
>> should keep in mind that Linked Data and SPARQL could be or already
>> are major drivers for CIDOC CRM vocabulary adoption in cultural
>> heritage institutions and generally data sets.
>>
>> I hope this thread will help to foster a good conversation around LD
>> and CIDOC CRM. I plan to address the issue again in July.
>>
>> Marco
>>
>> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 12:11 PM, martin<martin at ics.forth.gr>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Marco,
>>>
>>> I am not sure what W3C recommendations have to do with the cognitive
>>> world
>>> experts in the cultural-historical domain.
>>>
>>> But with respect to the statement we made,
>>> nobody in our team, including me, could sufficiently fast understand the
>>> respective
>>> 150 SPARQL queries to verify that they do what was intended.
>>>
>>> I could however put an archaeologist in our team to write queries as
>>> graphs containing
>>> question marks after an hour of training.
>>>
>>> We had implemented very different query paradigms for semantic networks
>>> in the past,
>>> which in our environment turned out to cause less cognitive overload.
>>>
>>> That's just an empirical statement. Generalization are, as always, as
>>> target of criticism.
>>> I would be happy if our provocation would trigger empirical cognitive
>>> research.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> On 24/5/2012 12:40 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marco,
>>>>
>>>> As Sebastian says, we have to use SPARQL. However, just because it is
>>>> the W3C standard doesn't mean you can't criticise it. However, just like
>>>> with SQL we are all looking at ways to help museum practitioners (does
>>>> this include our curators undertaking digital research projects) explore
>>>> data effectively, transparently and with reproducibility, and making use
>>>> of the technology with something additional to the SPARQL Endpoint (this
>>>> lack of additional tools perhaps explaining lack of take up).
>>>>
>>>> The ICOM statement,
>>>>
>>>> "Alternative Proposal for an ICOM-CIDOC Resolution on URIs for Museum
>>>> Objects / Linked Open Data", is more high level statement and the
>>>> statement that we are currently being asked to agree. It doesn't mention
>>>> SPARQL.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dominic
>>>>
>>>> Dominic Oldman
>>>> Deputy Head of IS
>>>> IS Development Manager
>>>> ResearchSpace Principal Investigator
>>>> British Museum
>>>> +44 (0)20 73238796
>>>> +44 (0)7980 865309
>>>> www.BritishMuseum.org
>>>> www.ResearchSpace.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr]
>>>> On Behalf Of Marco Neumann
>>>> Sent: 24 May 2012 10:04
>>>> To: crm-sig
>>>> Subject: [Crm-sig] problem of formulating queries is SPARQL it has
>>>> transferred the old relational paradigm onto the graph structure?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Martin et al
>>>>
>>>> I have just learned about this submission to Museums and the Web. The
>>>> authors make the following statement:
>>>>
>>>> "Last but not least, another problem of formulating queries is SPARQL
>>>> (SPARQL Protocol and RDF Query Language). Most favored by information
>>>> technology (IT) experts, it has transferred the old relational
>>>> paradigm onto the graph structure of the Semantic Web, creating an
>>>> incredibly complex system, even for specialists. In our applications,
>>>> no IT expert was able to verify that a SPARQL query of the kind we
>>>> present in this paper will yield the results intended by a domain
>>>> expert simply by reading it." *
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>> A New Framework for Querying Semantic Networks - Museums and the Web
>>>> 2012
>>>> http://www.museumsandtheweb.com/mw2012/papers/a_new_framework_for_queryi
>>>> ng_semantic_networks
>>>>
>>>> I find this to be a misleading statement by the authors since SPARQL
>>>> is the recommendation by W3C to query RDF data. Would you not
>>>> recommend SPARQL to museum practitioners to query RDF data?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Marco
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Marco Neumann
>>>> KONA
>>>>
>>>> Join us at SemTech Biz in San Francisco June 3-7 2012 and save 15%
>>>> with the lotico community discount code 'STMN'
>>>> http://www.lotico.com/evt/SemTechSF2012/
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
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>>>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
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>>>                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>                               |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>                                                             |
>               Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>               Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                Institute of Computer Science                |
>   Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>                                                             |
>               N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>                GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>                                                             |
>             Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>



-- 


---
Marco Neumann
KONA

Join us at SemTech Biz in San Francisco June 3-7 2012 and save 15%
with the lotico community discount code 'STMN'
http://www.lotico.com/evt/SemTechSF2012/

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