[Crm-sig] problem of formulating queries is SPARQL it has transferred the old relational paradigm onto the graph structure?

Marco Neumann marco.neumann at gmail.com
Thu May 24 22:19:36 EEST 2012


On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 3:15 PM, martin <martin at ics.forth.gr> wrote:
> Sure, Marco,
>
> I did NOT question SPARQL as an implementation means, even though there are
> very relevant
> and intuitive second order queries that SPARQL cannot answer. I question
> SPARQL as a human-computer
> interface.

And that would be appropriate I would say, but the formulation in the
paper is more fundamental and questions SPARQL as query language for
the Semantic Web in my reading.

>
> Cheers,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On 24/5/2012 9:42 μμ, Marco Neumann wrote:
>>
>> Martin,
>>
>> sure, I can see the provocation and obviously fell for it. But you
>> should keep in mind that Linked Data and SPARQL could be or already
>> are major drivers for CIDOC CRM vocabulary adoption in cultural
>> heritage institutions and generally data sets.
>>
>> I hope this thread will help to foster a good conversation around LD
>> and CIDOC CRM. I plan to address the issue again in July.
>>
>> Marco
>>
>> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 12:11 PM, martin<martin at ics.forth.gr>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Marco,
>>>
>>> I am not sure what W3C recommendations have to do with the cognitive
>>> world
>>> experts in the cultural-historical domain.
>>>
>>> But with respect to the statement we made,
>>> nobody in our team, including me, could sufficiently fast understand the
>>> respective
>>> 150 SPARQL queries to verify that they do what was intended.
>>>
>>> I could however put an archaeologist in our team to write queries as
>>> graphs containing
>>> question marks after an hour of training.
>>>
>>> We had implemented very different query paradigms for semantic networks
>>> in the past,
>>> which in our environment turned out to cause less cognitive overload.
>>>
>>> That's just an empirical statement. Generalization are, as always, as
>>> target of criticism.
>>> I would be happy if our provocation would trigger empirical cognitive
>>> research.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> On 24/5/2012 12:40 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marco,
>>>>
>>>> As Sebastian says, we have to use SPARQL. However, just because it is
>>>> the W3C standard doesn't mean you can't criticise it. However, just like
>>>> with SQL we are all looking at ways to help museum practitioners (does
>>>> this include our curators undertaking digital research projects) explore
>>>> data effectively, transparently and with reproducibility, and making use
>>>> of the technology with something additional to the SPARQL Endpoint (this
>>>> lack of additional tools perhaps explaining lack of take up).
>>>>
>>>> The ICOM statement,
>>>>
>>>> "Alternative Proposal for an ICOM-CIDOC Resolution on URIs for Museum
>>>> Objects / Linked Open Data", is more high level statement and the
>>>> statement that we are currently being asked to agree. It doesn't mention
>>>> SPARQL.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dominic
>>>>
>>>> Dominic Oldman
>>>> Deputy Head of IS
>>>> IS Development Manager
>>>> ResearchSpace Principal Investigator
>>>> British Museum
>>>> +44 (0)20 73238796
>>>> +44 (0)7980 865309
>>>> www.BritishMuseum.org
>>>> www.ResearchSpace.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr]
>>>> On Behalf Of Marco Neumann
>>>> Sent: 24 May 2012 10:04
>>>> To: crm-sig
>>>> Subject: [Crm-sig] problem of formulating queries is SPARQL it has
>>>> transferred the old relational paradigm onto the graph structure?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Martin et al
>>>>
>>>> I have just learned about this submission to Museums and the Web. The
>>>> authors make the following statement:
>>>>
>>>> "Last but not least, another problem of formulating queries is SPARQL
>>>> (SPARQL Protocol and RDF Query Language). Most favored by information
>>>> technology (IT) experts, it has transferred the old relational
>>>> paradigm onto the graph structure of the Semantic Web, creating an
>>>> incredibly complex system, even for specialists. In our applications,
>>>> no IT expert was able to verify that a SPARQL query of the kind we
>>>> present in this paper will yield the results intended by a domain
>>>> expert simply by reading it." *
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>> A New Framework for Querying Semantic Networks - Museums and the Web
>>>> 2012
>>>> http://www.museumsandtheweb.com/mw2012/papers/a_new_framework_for_queryi
>>>> ng_semantic_networks
>>>>
>>>> I find this to be a misleading statement by the authors since SPARQL
>>>> is the recommendation by W3C to query RDF data. Would you not
>>>> recommend SPARQL to museum practitioners to query RDF data?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Marco
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Marco Neumann
>>>> KONA
>>>>
>>>> Join us at SemTech Biz in San Francisco June 3-7 2012 and save 15%
>>>> with the lotico community discount code 'STMN'
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
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>>>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>                               |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>                                                             |
>               Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>               Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                Institute of Computer Science                |
>   Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>                                                             |
>               N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>                GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>                                                             |
>             Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>



-- 


---
Marco Neumann
KONA

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