[Crm-sig] problem of formulating queries is SPARQL it has transferred the old relational paradigm onto the graph structure?

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Thu May 24 22:15:07 EEST 2012


Sure, Marco,

I did NOT question SPARQL as an implementation means, even though there 
are very relevant
and intuitive second order queries that SPARQL cannot answer. I question 
SPARQL as a human-computer
interface.

Cheers,

Martin


On 24/5/2012 9:42 μμ, Marco Neumann wrote:
> Martin,
>
> sure, I can see the provocation and obviously fell for it. But you
> should keep in mind that Linked Data and SPARQL could be or already
> are major drivers for CIDOC CRM vocabulary adoption in cultural
> heritage institutions and generally data sets.
>
> I hope this thread will help to foster a good conversation around LD
> and CIDOC CRM. I plan to address the issue again in July.
>
> Marco
>
> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 12:11 PM, martin<martin at ics.forth.gr>  wrote:
>> Hi Marco,
>>
>> I am not sure what W3C recommendations have to do with the cognitive world
>> experts in the cultural-historical domain.
>>
>> But with respect to the statement we made,
>> nobody in our team, including me, could sufficiently fast understand the
>> respective
>> 150 SPARQL queries to verify that they do what was intended.
>>
>> I could however put an archaeologist in our team to write queries as
>> graphs containing
>> question marks after an hour of training.
>>
>> We had implemented very different query paradigms for semantic networks
>> in the past,
>> which in our environment turned out to cause less cognitive overload.
>>
>> That's just an empirical statement. Generalization are, as always, as
>> target of criticism.
>> I would be happy if our provocation would trigger empirical cognitive
>> research.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On 24/5/2012 12:40 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote:
>>> Hi Marco,
>>>
>>> As Sebastian says, we have to use SPARQL. However, just because it is
>>> the W3C standard doesn't mean you can't criticise it. However, just like
>>> with SQL we are all looking at ways to help museum practitioners (does
>>> this include our curators undertaking digital research projects) explore
>>> data effectively, transparently and with reproducibility, and making use
>>> of the technology with something additional to the SPARQL Endpoint (this
>>> lack of additional tools perhaps explaining lack of take up).
>>>
>>> The ICOM statement,
>>>
>>> "Alternative Proposal for an ICOM-CIDOC Resolution on URIs for Museum
>>> Objects / Linked Open Data", is more high level statement and the
>>> statement that we are currently being asked to agree. It doesn't mention
>>> SPARQL.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Dominic
>>>
>>> Dominic Oldman
>>> Deputy Head of IS
>>> IS Development Manager
>>> ResearchSpace Principal Investigator
>>> British Museum
>>> +44 (0)20 73238796
>>> +44 (0)7980 865309
>>> www.BritishMuseum.org
>>> www.ResearchSpace.org
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr]
>>> On Behalf Of Marco Neumann
>>> Sent: 24 May 2012 10:04
>>> To: crm-sig
>>> Subject: [Crm-sig] problem of formulating queries is SPARQL it has
>>> transferred the old relational paradigm onto the graph structure?
>>>
>>> Hi Martin et al
>>>
>>> I have just learned about this submission to Museums and the Web. The
>>> authors make the following statement:
>>>
>>> "Last but not least, another problem of formulating queries is SPARQL
>>> (SPARQL Protocol and RDF Query Language). Most favored by information
>>> technology (IT) experts, it has transferred the old relational
>>> paradigm onto the graph structure of the Semantic Web, creating an
>>> incredibly complex system, even for specialists. In our applications,
>>> no IT expert was able to verify that a SPARQL query of the kind we
>>> present in this paper will yield the results intended by a domain
>>> expert simply by reading it." *
>>>
>>> *
>>> A New Framework for Querying Semantic Networks - Museums and the Web
>>> 2012
>>> http://www.museumsandtheweb.com/mw2012/papers/a_new_framework_for_queryi
>>> ng_semantic_networks
>>>
>>> I find this to be a misleading statement by the authors since SPARQL
>>> is the recommendation by W3C to query RDF data. Would you not
>>> recommend SPARQL to museum practitioners to query RDF data?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Marco
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Marco Neumann
>>> KONA
>>>
>>> Join us at SemTech Biz in San Francisco June 3-7 2012 and save 15%
>>> with the lotico community discount code 'STMN'
>>> http://www.lotico.com/evt/SemTechSF2012/
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>>
>> --
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>   Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>                                                               |
>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>                                                               |
>>                 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
>>                  GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
>>                                                               |
>>               Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
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>
>


-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
                N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,             |
                 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece               |
                                                              |
              Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl           |
--------------------------------------------------------------




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