[Crm-sig] [Frbr-crm] Bibliographic data in CRM / LIDO - authoritative mappings, help urgently requested

Regine Stein r.stein at fotomarburg.de
Mon Jun 25 23:20:06 EEST 2012

Dear all,

Apologies for the delayed reply.

I believe that we have first of all to clearly distinguish between the 
different goals of the models here under discussion. If I haven't 
misunderstood the whole thing over the last few years
- CIDOC-CRM as well as FRBRoo are conceptual models, ontologies which 
capture and represent the semantics encountered in museum and 
bibliographic information. Both are primarily and authoritatively 
described and defined in natural language, and encodings in any 
technical format provide implementations, but not definitions of the 
model. There are no authoritative
- LIDO as well as ONIX, in contrast, are XML-based metadata standards, 
both defined as XML Schema. LIDO, being an application of the CRM, 
provides an explicit format to deliver museum information in a 
standardized way. ONIX provides an explicit format for book industry 
product information.

To my understanding the well worthwhile task Michael Hopwood is 
undertaking, is a schema crosswalk between LIDO and ONIX which of course 
has to be based on the conceptual models CRM and FRBRoo. And at this 
occasion analyzing to which extent the LIDO schema would fit with the 
requirements of an explicit format for bibliographic / book industry 
product information. This does of course not imply that LIDO should be 
used for this kind of data - it's in the first instance an analysis to 
highlight matches and limits and thereby facilitate the understanding 
and work for people who work with these schema in practice (and are not 
necessarily that familiar with the whole conceptual background) - e.g. 
sending data to Europeana.

This said all such work must of course rely on the proper schema 
definitions (so e.g. inscriptions are clearly bound to a physical 
carrier according to the LIDO schema as well as the CRM definition).

Best regards,
Regine Stein
(Co-chair CIDOC Working Group Data Harvesting and Interchange, being the 
"LIDO home")

Am 21.06.2012 12:24, schrieb patrick.le-boeuf at bnf.fr:
> Dear all,
> I confess I am totally perplexed by the request. I am not a LIDO 
> specialist, but it seems to me simply impossible to map ONIX to LIDO, 
> as they were not designed to describe the same things (as is correctly 
> demonstrated in reference [4]). ONIX can be mapped to library formats 
> such as MARC formats or MODS, but LIDO was designed to account for 
> physical objects, not abstract notions such as publications; the only 
> element of "non-uniqueness" I can find in LIDO is the mention of the 
> state/edition to which a specific art print or photograph print 
> belongs (but a LIDO record is designed to account for the specific 
> print as a physical object, not to describe the abstract notion of 
> "state"). In my (possibly wrong) understanding, "authoritative 
> examples of CIDOC-CRM and/or LIDO data records or sets for 
> bibliographic objects" cannot be provided, as such examples simply 
> cannot exist. Assistance "with the decisions on semantics, syntax and 
> mapping rules to translate ONIX structures into LIDO" cannot be 
> provided either, as ONIX structures, in my (possibly wrong) opinion, 
> simply cannot be translated into LIDO.
> The suggestion that a manifestation could be described in LIDO as 
> though it were a unique item does not seem to me particularly helpful. 
> What is the point of doing so? And regarding a printed text as a 
> specific case of "inscription" seems to me to be stretching the LIDO 
> (and CRM) notion of "inscription" too far. The temptative mapping from 
> UNIMARC to CRM, to which Michael Hopwood refers in his message, is a 
> demonstration that it is impossible to map from a model or format 
> designed to account for abstractions to a model or format designed to 
> account for unique physical things.
> As Martin puts it, FRBRoo would be a better match for a mapping target 
> from ONIX (and <in/d/ecs>). Besides, I do not understand why ONIX 
> should be mapped to LIDO in the first place (I failed to discover the 
> "background on how and why" in reference [4], although I found that 
> document extremely interesting). But I leave it to LIDO specialists to 
> send a more comprehensive answer to Michael Hopwood.
> Best wishes,
> Patrick Le Boeuf (National Library of France, and member of the CIDOC 
> CRM/FRBR Harmonisation Group)
> Message de : *martin <martin at ics.forth.gr>*
> 18/06/2012 19:17 	
> Envoyé par :
> *frbr-crm-bounces at ics.forth.gr*
> Pour
> 	crm-sig at ics.forth.gr, FRBR Group <frbr-crm at ics.forth.gr>
> Copie
> Objet
> 	Re: [Frbr-crm] [Crm-sig] Bibliographic data in CRM / LIDO - 
> authoritative mappings, help urgently requested
> Dear Michael,
> I forward your request to the FRBR-CRM Harmization Group. I'd expect 
> CRM-FRBRoo would provide a much better fit,
> but the colleagues from IFLA are THE experts in this respect.
> Thank you for your questions! I hope you will get enough answers, 
> otherwise, ask again.
> Best
> Martin
> On 18/6/2012 7:12 ??, Michael Hopwood wrote:
> Hello CRM and LIDO experts,
> I am working on the final draft of a comprehensive mapping of the ONIX 
> for Books 3.0.1 schema [1] to the LIDO schema [2] in the context of 
> Linked Heritage [3]. For more background on how and why, please refer 
> to EDItEUR's first deliverable in Linked Heritage (which also includes 
> more on ONIX) [4]. The expression of this mapping work is primarily 
> XSLT using the MINT system [5]
> Since the best practice in mapping standard data schemas [6] is to get 
> firm agreement or at least assent after clarification from both 
> schema's designers / maintainers, I'd like to ask you urgently for 
> assistance in this effort, especially any or all of these ways:
> a)      Contributing authoritative (see above) examples of CIDOC-CRM 
> and/or LIDO data records or sets for bibliographic objects (i.e. books 
> and library catalogue records) (these will be used only for the 
> purpose of understanding the schemas and building the mapping);
> b)      Assisting directly with the decisions on semantics, syntax and 
> mapping rules to translate ONIX structures into LIDO (I will supply 
> any necessary explanation of what the ONIX schema says based on 
> EDItEUR's authoritative expertise);
> c)       Reviewing and criticising the draft mapping in detail from a 
> CRM/LIDO perspective once it is complete.
> The CRM-LIDO mapping at _http://www.cidoc-crm.org/crm_mappings.html_I 
> did not find very helpful, as it is at a very high level of 
> abstraction; I need some help with both fairly broad semantic 
> categories and some fine details of semantics and (the limits of) 
> expressive syntax (maybe I'm missing something, so I'd be grateful to 
> be shown where!).
> Some of the mapping notes and action notes from the UNIMARC (at link 
> above) express the problems I have come across conceptually -- e.g.
> -          Mapping the "manifestation" class for a generic product as 
> though it were a unique ("representative") item (LIDO)
> -          Future or planned events (CRM and LIDO -- but is this 
> helped by FRBRoo?)
> ...and there are some new difficulties that I discovered:
> -          "Inscriptions" as printed text on identical, mass-produced 
> products? (CRM and LIDO)
> -          Structured text elements of names and titles (LIDO for 
> sure; maybe CRM?)
> -          Contact details (LIDO for sure; maybe CRM?)
> -          Allowed uses / terms and conditions -- i.e. rights and 
> licences (LIDO for sure; maybe CRM?)
> -          Almost everything to do with the relationships between, and 
> relative detail needed for an artwork or object as subject of a book 
> vs. the book itself as the artwork (LIDO).
> Please feel free to either discuss this request on the list or, I 
> suggest without insisting, contact me directly to discuss the mappings 
> in detail with other interested experts.
> Best wishes,
> Michael
> 1. _http://www.editeur.org/93/Release-3.0-Downloads/_
> 2. _www.lido-schema.org/_ <http://www.lido-schema.org/>
> 3. _http://www.linkedheritage.org/_
> 4. _http://www.linkedheritage.org/getFile.php?id=283_
> 5. _http://mint.image.ece.ntua.gr/redmine/projects/mint/wiki_
> 6. 
> _http://www.doi.org/VMF/documents/VocabularyMappingFrameworkIntroductionV1.0%28091212%29.pdf_-- 
> see section 1.5 "Authorisation of mappings"
> Michael Hopwood
> Linked Heritage Project Lead
> United House, North  Road
> London N7 9DP
> UK
> Tel: +44 20 7503 6418
> Mob: +44 7811 591036
> Skype: michael.hopwood.editeur
> _http://www.linkedheritage.org/_
> _http://editeur.org/_
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Regine Stein, Dipl.-Math.
Leiterin Informationstechnik
Deutsches Dokumentationszentrum für Kunstgeschichte
Bildarchiv Foto Marburg

Biegenstraße 11
D-35037 Marburg

Tel.: +49 (0) 6421-28 23666
Fax: +49 (0) 6421-28 28931
r.stein at fotomarburg.de
www.fotomarburg.de  |www.bildindex.de  

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