[Crm-sig] [Frbr-crm] Bibliographic data in CRM / LIDO - authoritative mappings, help urgently requested

patrick.le-boeuf at bnf.fr patrick.le-boeuf at bnf.fr
Thu Jun 21 13:24:39 EEST 2012

Dear all,
I confess I am totally perplexed by the request. I am not a LIDO 
specialist, but it seems to me simply impossible to map ONIX to LIDO, as 
they were not designed to describe the same things (as is correctly 
demonstrated in reference [4]). ONIX can be mapped to library formats such 
as MARC formats or MODS, but LIDO was designed to account for physical 
objects, not abstract notions such as publications; the only element of 
"non-uniqueness" I can find in LIDO is the mention of the state/edition to 
which a specific art print or photograph print belongs (but a LIDO record 
is designed to account for the specific print as a physical object, not to 
describe the abstract notion of "state"). In my (possibly wrong) 
understanding, "authoritative examples of CIDOC-CRM and/or LIDO data 
records or sets for bibliographic objects" cannot be provided, as such 
examples simply cannot exist. Assistance "with the decisions on semantics, 
syntax and mapping rules to translate ONIX structures into LIDO" cannot be 
provided either, as ONIX structures, in my (possibly wrong) opinion, 
simply cannot be translated into LIDO.
The suggestion that a manifestation could be described in LIDO as though 
it were a unique item does not seem to me particularly helpful. What is 
the point of doing so? And regarding a printed text as a specific case of 
"inscription" seems to me to be stretching the LIDO (and CRM) notion of 
"inscription" too far. The temptative mapping from UNIMARC to CRM, to 
which Michael Hopwood refers in his message, is a demonstration that it is 
impossible to map from a model or format designed to account for 
abstractions to a model or format designed to account for unique physical 
As Martin puts it, FRBRoo would be a better match for a mapping target 
from ONIX (and <indecs>). Besides, I do not understand why ONIX should be 
mapped to LIDO in the first place (I failed to discover the "background on 
how and why" in reference [4], although I found that document extremely 
interesting). But I leave it to LIDO specialists to send a more 
comprehensive answer to Michael Hopwood.
Best wishes,
Patrick Le Boeuf (National Library of France, and member of the CIDOC 
CRM/FRBR Harmonisation Group)

Message de : martin <martin at ics.forth.gr> 
                      18/06/2012 19:17

Envoy¨¦ par : 
frbr-crm-bounces at ics.forth.gr

crm-sig at ics.forth.gr, FRBR Group <frbr-crm at ics.forth.gr>

Re: [Frbr-crm] [Crm-sig] Bibliographic data in CRM / LIDO - authoritative 
mappings, help urgently requested

Dear Michael,

I forward your request to the FRBR-CRM Harmization Group. I'd expect 
CRM-FRBRoo would provide a much better fit,
but the colleagues from IFLA are THE experts in this respect.

Thank you for your questions! I hope you will get enough answers, 
otherwise, ask again.



On 18/6/2012 7:12 ¦Ì¦Ì, Michael Hopwood wrote: 
Hello CRM and LIDO experts,
I am working on the final draft of a comprehensive mapping of the ONIX for 
Books 3.0.1 schema [1] to the LIDO schema [2] in the context of Linked 
Heritage [3]. For more background on how and why, please refer to 
EDItEUR¡¯s first deliverable in Linked Heritage (which also includes more 
on ONIX) [4]. The expression of this mapping work is primarily XSLT using 
the MINT system [5]
Since the best practice in mapping standard data schemas [6] is to get 
firm agreement or at least assent after clarification from both schema¡¯s 
designers / maintainers, I¡¯d like to ask you urgently for assistance in 
this effort, especially any or all of these ways:
a)      Contributing authoritative (see above) examples of CIDOC-CRM 
and/or LIDO data records or sets for bibliographic objects (i.e. books and 
library catalogue records) (these will be used only for the purpose of 
understanding the schemas and building the mapping);
b)      Assisting directly with the decisions on semantics, syntax and 
mapping rules to translate ONIX structures into LIDO (I will supply any 
necessary explanation of what the ONIX schema says based on EDItEUR¡¯s 
authoritative expertise);
c)       Reviewing and criticising the draft mapping in detail from a 
CRM/LIDO perspective once it is complete.
The CRM-LIDO mapping at http://www.cidoc-crm.org/crm_mappings.html I did 
not find very helpful, as it is at a very high level of abstraction; I 
need some help with both fairly broad semantic categories and some fine 
details of semantics and (the limits of) expressive syntax (maybe I¡¯m 
missing something, so I¡¯d be grateful to be shown where!).
Some of the mapping notes and action notes from the UNIMARC (at link 
above) express the problems I have come across conceptually ¨C e.g.
-          Mapping the ¡°manifestation¡± class for a generic product as 
though it were a unique (¡°representative¡±) item (LIDO)
-          Future or planned events (CRM and LIDO ¨C but is this helped by 
¡­and there are some new difficulties that I discovered:
-          ¡°Inscriptions¡± as printed text on identical, mass-produced 
products? (CRM and LIDO)
-          Structured text elements of names and titles (LIDO for sure; 
maybe CRM?)
-          Contact details (LIDO for sure; maybe CRM?)
-          Allowed uses / terms and conditions ¨C i.e. rights and licences 
(LIDO for sure; maybe CRM?)
-          Almost everything to do with the relationships between, and 
relative detail needed for an artwork or object as subject of a book vs. 
the book itself as the artwork (LIDO).
Please feel free to either discuss this request on the list or, I suggest 
without insisting, contact me directly to discuss the mappings in detail 
with other interested experts.
Best wishes,
1.       http://www.editeur.org/93/Release-3.0-Downloads/
2.       www.lido-schema.org/
3.       http://www.linkedheritage.org/
4.       http://www.linkedheritage.org/getFile.php?id=283
5.       http://mint.image.ece.ntua.gr/redmine/projects/mint/wiki 
¨C see section 1.5 ¡°Authorisation of mappings¡±
Michael Hopwood
Linked Heritage Project Lead
United House, North  Road
London N7 9DP
Tel: +44 20 7503 6418
Mob: +44 7811 591036
Skype: michael.hopwood.editeur
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