[Crm-sig] How to represent place on painting? (E46 Section Definition, E47 Spatial Coordinates)

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Mon Oct 10 22:15:13 EEST 2011

Hi Vladimir,

The CIDOC CRM is, as any ontology, extensible and made for extension.

You can declare a subclass of E47. See scope note:
"This class comprises the textual or numeric information required to locate specific instances of E53 Place within schemes of spatial 
Coordinates are a specific form of E44 Place Appellation, that is, a means of referring to a particular E53 Place. Coordinates are not 
restricted to longitude, latitude and altitude. Any regular system of reference that maps onto an E19 Physical Object can be used to 
generate coordinates."

You can declare a class "rectangular_canvas_coordinates" as below, or "rectangular_flat_object_coordinates".
Please have in mind that global queries on such coordinates hardly make any sense:
In order to make sense, either many data with many coordinates on the same object should exist, or many objects
with comparable features at the same relative location. Both cases are extreme specializations. For all
other applications, these coordinates are just informative, i.e. should come as result, but are not required
for analytical queries on values.

On 10/5/2011 3:54 PM, Vladimir Alexiev wrote:
> We got some data on Rembrandt paintings like this:
>        <sample.type>			cross-section
>        <sample.analytical_technique>	analytical microscopy
>        <sample.location.hor>		6
>        <sample.location.hor.start>	FROM_LEFT
>        <sample.location.vert>		13.2
>        <sample.location.vert.start>	FROM_BOTTOM
> Meaning: someone used a microscope to look at paint layers located (6, 13.2)
> cm from the bottom left corner of the painting.
> Similarly, in the ResearchSpace system we'll have Image Annotation
> functionality, so a user can say anything about a particular image location
> (or region).
> How to represent this in CIDOC CRM?
> - these are places defined on a physical object, so E46 Section Definition
> seems appropriate
> http://personal.sirma.bg/vladimir/crm/entity_list_cleaned.html#E46_Section_D
> efinition
> - they also have coordinates, so E47 Spatial Coordinates seems appropriate
> http://personal.sirma.bg/vladimir/crm/entity_list_cleaned.html#E47_Spatial_C
> oordinates
Yes, good point.
> Unfortunately neither includes specific properties to provide coordinates,
> etc.
> E.g. I can state such esoteric fact as E47_Spatial_Coordinates. P105 right
> held by: E39 Actor
> but I cannot state WHAT the coordinates are :-(
Yes, not "unfortunately", but "fortunately", because you can propose meaningful
extensions. Keep in mind that there are hundreds of reasonable coordinate systems,
for instance on maps. Do you really suggest CRM should standardize all of them?
This is a question of modularity of ontologies. Staying within one's field of expertise....
> I've started looking at previous work on Image Annotation and so far found
> this:
> http://code.google.com/p/annotation-ontology/wiki/Selectors
> "Init End Corner Selector" allows to specify a rectangle, e.g.:
> aos:init="(280,30)" aos:end="(380,120)"
> I don't like it particularly since:
> - data is not broken into separate fields and there are no xsd types
> - units cannot be specified (presumably these are pixels)
> - you can only attach it to images but not objects (e.g. paintings)
> - you cannot have flexibility in specifying the origin (that doesn't matter
> on a precise pixelated image, but matters on an irregular real-world shape)
Please keep in mind, that a Digital Image is immaterial, there is NO place in the
sense of the CRM on it. On your Rembrandt however, there is!
> I think the best is to somehow combine E46 Section Definition and E47
> Spatial Coordinates,
> and attach Type properties about origin,
and Dimensions about the precise
> position.
No, not Dimensions. Just:
and unit.

Better, however, rectangles!


> Can anyone offer some advice on Image Annotation?

See for instance METS <area> definitions!


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  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
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                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
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