[Crm-sig] ISSUE: P109 subp of P49

Christian-Emil Ore c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no
Wed Aug 24 14:04:25 EEST 2011


I am not competent to discuss the English language. The Norwegian 
translation of Custody, can only be applied to objects and persons.

C-E


custody, n.

Etymology:  < Latin custōdiaguarding, keeping, < custos, 
custōd-emguardian, keeper: see -y suffix1.... (Show More)
Thesaurus »
    1. Safe keeping, protection, defence; charge, care, guardianship. 
Const. of the thing guarded, or of the person guarding it.1491    Act 7 
Hen. VII c. 3   There to rest as your Tresour in the Custodie of the 
seid Chief Officer.
a1535    T. More Hist. Richard III in Wks. (1557) 49/1   Both‥for‥a 
while, to ben in the custody of their mother.
1555    R. Eden tr. Peter Martyr of Angleria Decades of Newe Worlde ii. 
i. f. 54,   Leauynge the custodie of the fortresse with a certeyne noble 
gentelman.
a1626    Bacon Considerations War with Spain in Wks. XIV. 486   There 
was prepared a fleet of thirty ships for the custody of the narrow seas.
1652    Sir E. Nicholas in N. Papers (Camden) I. 320   When he shall 
have the custody of the Great Seal.
1704    London Gaz. No. 4048/4,   She [a mare] was seen‥in custody of a Man.
1781    Gibbon Decline & Fall III. lxiv. 609   The custody of the passes 
was neglected.
1891    Law Times 90 462/1   Where the court refuses a parent the 
custody of his child.
1491—1891(Hide quotations)
  Thesaurus »
Categories »

    2. The keeping of the officers of justice (for some presumed offence 
against the law); confinement, imprisonment, durance.1611    T. Coryate 
Crudities sig. D3v,   He shall be apprehended by some Souldiers,‥and 
committed to safe custody til he hath paid some fee for his ransome.
[a1616    Shakespeare Comedy of Errors (1623) i. i. 155   Iaylor, take 
him to thy custodie.]
1665    T. Manley tr. H. Grotius De Rebus Belgicis 129   He 
had‥committed him to hard and close Custody, more out of suspition, than 
for any Crimes.
1732    Pope True Narr. what passed in London in Swift et al. Misc.: 3rd 
Vol. 259   That so Zealous and Honest a Man should be ordered into Custody.
1801    M. Edgeworth Forster in Moral Tales I. 147   The 
constables‥appeared. Tom Random was taken into custody.
1888    J. Morley Burke 61   The messenger of the serjeant-at-arms 
attempted to take one of them into custody in his own shop in the city.
1611—1888(Hide quotations)
  Thesaurus »

   †3. The office of a keeper; guardianship. Obs.1609    Bible (Douay) 
I. Num. viii. 26   Thus shalt thou dispose to the Levites in their 
custodies.
1611    J. Speed Hist. Great Brit. ix. ix. 516/2   Who gaue away‥such 
Honours, Custodies, and Dignities, as were vacant.
1613    H. Finch Law (1636) 286   Custodies of Woods, Parks, Forrests, 
Chases.
1609—1613(Hide quotations)
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   †4. A case for keeping a thing in. Obs. rare.1483    Caxton tr. J. de 
Voragine Golden Legende 240/3   His bookes whiche had [not] a custodye 
[nullum habentes conservatorium] fyl in the water.
1483—1483(Hide quotations)

     5. attrib.a1625    W. Cope in J. Gutch Collectanea Curiosa (1781) 
I. 122   Custody Lands, anciently termed the Crown Lands, answered in 
the Pipe.


On 24.08.2011 12:16, Stephen Stead wrote:
> In the case of archaeological sites the idea that curation implies custody is not true. Which is why I do not agree with this issue. It may be true in many instances in which case invoke multiple properties but it is not true in all instances which is what the sub-property relationship says.
> Rgds
> SdS
>
> Stephen Stead
> Tel +44 20 8668 3075
> Mob +44 7802 755 013
> E-mail steads at paveprime.com
> LinkedIn Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/in/steads
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Christian-Emil Ore
> Sent: 24 August 2011 10:32
> To: crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE: P109 subp of P49
>
> There may be language and juridical variations as well.
> To confuse: Traditionally the term in Norwegian for a curator was konservator, now the term is gradually replaced by kurator as a loan word from English
>
> Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definition with citations:
>
> 5. The officer in charge of a museum, gallery of art, library, or the like; a keeper, custodian. In many cases the official title of the chief keeper.
>
> 1667    Philos. Trans. (Royal Soc.) 2 486   The Curator of the Royal
> Society.
>
> a1684    J. Evelyn Diary anno 1661 (1955) III. 292   Our Diving bell?in
> which our Curator contin<ue>d halfe an houre under water.
>
> 1767    Hunter Diary LVIII. 42   The Curators of the British Musum.
>
> 1837    J. G. Lockhart Mem. Life Scott vii,   In June 1795 he was
> appointed one of the Curators of the Advocate's library.
>
> 1889    Whitaker's Almanack 160   Museum of Practical Geology?Curator,
> Registrar and Librarian.
>
> So I think we can be quite sure that curation of an object implies having the object in custody. The oposite need not to be true.
>
> C-E
>
>
> On 24.08.2011 08:17, Vladimir Ivanov wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I'm not a museum expert, but (imho) the intended meaning of both
>> concepts (custody and curation) may vary from one museum to another.
>> Moreover, this meaning is matter of a museum bylaws (or
>> specialization), and is not a "rigid".
>>
>> So, any restriction (including subrpoperty) may potentially cause a
>> misunderstanding.
>>
>> Still awaiting for any feedback from museum experts...
>>
>> --
>> Best,
>> Vladimir
>>
>> 2011/8/23 martin<martin at ics.forth.gr<mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>>
>>
>>      Dear Steve,
>>
>>      Well, we have said that "custody" may be physical or legal. May be
>>      we need a clearer
>>      concept of what "curation" means, in particular the relatively
>>      exotic concept of
>>      landscapes. I would feel better if curation would imply a form of
>>      custody... caring
>>      that things are there where they are supposed to be...
>>
>>      On the other hand, "custody" explicitly refers to Physical Things,
>>      hence including
>>      landscapes. How do we define "custody" for such things? can we
>>      differentiate that
>>      from "curation" ? If not, we better bring the concepts closer
>>      together...
>>
>>      May be also the concept of "custody" goes beyond "keeping". In
>>      Germany, the Latin
>>      term "custos" might quite well be used similar to "curator".
>>
>>      Do we know any experts of the concept, what do museologists say????
>>
>>      Best,
>>
>>      Martin
>>
>>      On 8/22/2011 2:28 AM, Stephen Stead wrote:
>>       >  Dear all
>>       >  As the P49 description says has "custody of" and E78 collection
>>      talks about
>>       >  an E39 Actor having "assembled and maintained"  it would be
>>      natural to
>>       >  assume that the E39 Actor would have had custody off the items
>>      that made up
>>       >  the E78 Collection but it is possible to have curatorial
>>      responsibility for
>>       >  a set of objects that you have never actually had in your control for
>>       >  instance landscapes, caves, archaeological sites or even
>>      conceivably large
>>       >  objects.
>>       >  I would therefore tend to the notion that normally one would use
>>      an instance
>>       >  of each property  (P49 and P109) to describe the relationship
>>      between an
>>       >  instance of E78 Collection and the instance of E39 Actor that
>>      curates it,
>>       >  rather than always assuming that curation (P109) implies custody
>>      (P49).
>>       >  Rgds
>>       >  SdS
>>       >
>>       >  Stephen Stead
>>       >  Tel +44 20 8668 3075
>>       >  Mob +44 7802 755 013
>>       >  E-mail steads at paveprime.com<mailto:steads at paveprime.com>
>>       >  LinkedIn Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/in/steads
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >  -----Original Message-----
>>       >  From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr
>>      <mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>
>>      [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr
>>      <mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr>] On
>>       >  Behalf Of martin
>>       >  Sent: 12 August 2011 18:06
>>       >  To: crm-sig
>>       >  Subject: [Crm-sig] ISSUE: P109 subp of P49
>>       >
>>       >  Dear All
>>       >
>>       >  Should be
>>       >  E78 Collection.P109 has current or former curator.E39 Actor
>>       >
>>       >  subproperty of:
>>       >
>>       >  E18 Physical Thing.P49 has former or current keeper:E39 Actor ?
>>       >
>>       >  What do the experts say?
>>       >
>>       >  Best,
>>       >
>>       >  Martin
>>       >
>>
>>
>>      --
>>
>>      --------------------------------------------------------------
>>        Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>        Research Director             |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>                                      |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
>>      <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>  |
>>                                                                    |
>>                      Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>                      Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>                       Institute of Computer Science                |
>>          Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>                                                                    |
>>        Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>                                                                    |
>>                Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
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