[Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Tue Dec 15 17:05:30 EET 2009

Hi Steve, Fantastic, thank you, you found simple words for what I try to say in all these messages!

Stephen Stead wrote:
> Dear all
> Just got back from Brazil and realised that the "sunrise" is not the event
> but "watching the sunrise" is the event! It was a very pretty sunrise as we
> flew into Heathrow!!
> Rgds
> SdS
> Stephen Stead
> Tel +44 20 8668 3075 
> Mob +44 7802 755 013
> E-mail steads at paveprime.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: martin [mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr] 
> Sent: 11 December 2009 19:25
> To: steads at paveprime.com
> Cc: c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no; 'crm-sig'
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise
> Dear All,
> I agree with Steve here, and suggest to change the example to a battle or
> meeting.
> To make my point with the event:
> We must not confuse what an E5 is with what an event is. I am not concerned
> if the sunrise is an "event"
> in the linguistic sense. It is indeed an event in the sense of physics.
> If we regard that the definition
> of E5 should pertain to endurants leaving potentially traces or evidence,
> the events of
> conditions on states of affairs being fulfilled do not qualify for E5. Such
> condition-based
> events to my opinion neither have a natural notion of participants and
> things being present.
> To my understanding, a sunrise neither has well-defined things present, nor
> natural
> boundaries, nor does it leave traces. I first have to define the place to
> identify the sunrise.
> In battles, the battle identifies the place, and not otherwise round. If we
> accept notions
> comprising such fundamental differences of behaviour, we have no chance to
> introduce any advanced
> CRM-based reasoning.
> I would like to take the occasion of this example to
> discuss situations as an alternative concept, not to introduce it into the
> CRM, but to understand
> where it could appear in the CRM. I regard a sunrise as a "situation". If we
> regard then "situation" IsA Temporal Entity,
> then the sunrise is E2, and we avoid all ambiguities.
> Best,
> martin
> Stephen Stead wrote:
>> Dear all
>> I think we may be getting lost here. If the "sunrise" is a particular one
> or
>> not does not really matter UNLESS some other documentation refers to the
>> same "sunrise". If there is, or we suspect that there is, then it is an
>> event. If not then it is only necessary to link (P62) to the concept of a
>> sunrise so that we can find it as an example of the use of the concept.
>> Probably rather reductionist but it works I think. For the Munch then we
>> know there is documentation that points to the stroll-event, so it is an
>> event; part of the event (P9) is a E65 Creation/F27 Work Conception.
>> I think that this allows us to do everything in our intended scope but I
> may
>> be wrong!
>> Rgds
>> SdS
>> Stephen Stead
>> Tel +44 20 8668 3075 
>> Mob +44 7802 755 013
>> E-mail steads at paveprime.com
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr]
> On
>> Behalf Of Christian-Emil Ore
>> Sent: 11 December 2009 08:40
>> To: martin
>> Cc: crm-sig
>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise
>> Hi
>> A sunrise is an event. In the Monet case it may or may not be. In the 
>> case the painting describes a generalised conceptual understanding of a 
>> sunrise it is in my opinion not.
>> The Norwegian painter Edvard Munch connects  in his writings his 
>> painting "Scream" to a  concrete event when he and some friends walked 
>> in a park just outside  the centre of Oslo (Kristiania)  in the early 
>> 1880s apparently in the late afternoon (early spring or late autumn) 
>> when the sun was setting and Munch got the sensation of the existential 
>> scream of nature. Thus the painting depicts this feeling (concept) as 
>> well as in some sense the  stroll-event.
>> (http://www.munch.museum.no/ekko/gr/skrik.htm)
>> I think d) is the best solution but the Munch example may be too 
>> complicated from a pedagogical point of view although it is a pretty 
>> well known painting.
>> Regards,
>> Christian-Emil
>> On 10.12.2009 21:35, martin wrote:
>>> Are you sure? Did Monet not paint in the nature? I remember some French
>>> term of plein-airists...
>>> We have four choices:
>>> a) accept the sunrise as event
>>> b) find a better class for the sunrise
>>> c) regard the depiction as conceptual, but for an IMPRESSIONIST, that 
>>> causes me headaches
>>> d) find a less ambiguous example and postpone our understanding of the 
>>> true nature of the sunrise
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin
>>> Christian-Emil Ore wrote:
>>>> I have another comment. Monet painting does not depict any particular 
>>>> sunrise, just the concept of the sun rising (over Le Havre). So the 
>>>> example should perhaps be replaced or changed from event to type or 
>>>> conceptual object.
>>>> Chr-Emil
>>>> On 10.12.2009 16:03, martin wrote:
>>>>> Dear Oeyvind,
>>>>> Sure, we know what a sunrise is. I meant, what is the superclass of 
>>>>> "sunrise" in the CRM.
>>>>> I could regard it, as you say, as just a time-span (with time-zone). 
>>>>> An E5 Event should bring about
>>>>> a change of state. That it will be daylight after the sunrise could 
>>>>> be regarded as a change of state, even
>>>>> though the daylight line just sweeps over the earth. There is
>>>>> however no interaction associated with it, as with any other 
>>>>> occurrence patterns between
>>>>> independtly moving things. There is no objective notion of 
>>>>> "participants". There is no notion
>>>>> of things "meeting", except may be for the photons. In this sense, 
>>>>> driving a car from A to B could
>>>>> be seen as consisting of thousands of events of passing stones next 
>>>>> to the road.
>>>>> We could regard is as E4 Period, since in the scope note we say, 
>>>>> there is no need for change of state,
>>>>> and assign a place and time to it.
>>>>>  From a point of physics, there is no energy-mediated interaction 
>>>>> between the participants, as with activities,
>>>>> building crashes etc.
>>>>> Just to clarify, where the borders of an event are. Is "passing by" 
>>>>> at a distance without interaction an event
>>>>> in the sense we need for the CRM? Do I pass by Auckland in a sense on 
>>>>> my way from home to my bureau in Heraklion?
>>>>> I suspect we are touching the notion of "situation" we have avoided 
>>>>> to model so far.
>>>>> Interesting problem, isn't it?
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Martin
>>>>> Øyvind Eide wrote:
>>>>>> Den 10. des.. 2009 kl. 14.38 skrev martin:
>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>> "“Impression Sunrise” by Monet (E84) depicts sun rising over Le 
>>>>>>> Havre (E5) mode of depiction Impressionistic (E55)" :
>>>>>>> One may argue, that "Sunrise over Le Havre" depicts a place and a 
>>>>>>> certain timespan, but the sunrise itself might
>>>>>>> not be seen as a process in the sense of the CRM, since it is just 
>>>>>>> a question of a view on a constellation of deeply
>>>>>>> independent things (rather a "situation"). May be, we should avoid 
>>>>>>> the example, until we better know what a sunrise is?
>>>>>> Dear Martin, and all,
>>>>>> If we do not know now what a sunrise is, will we know better in the 
>>>>>> future?
>>>>>> I think the problem is not the word "sunrise". It is a normal word 
>>>>>> with several related meanings: e.g. " a time of day", or "any 
>>>>>> (major) awakening", as a dictionary will tell us.
>>>>>> The problem is rather than when such a word is used in the title of 
>>>>>> a painting, the meaning is not fixed, so that it can mean the time 
>>>>>> of day, or it can mean the start of a new, totally different part of 
>>>>>> person's life, just to take two examples. In order to model such a 
>>>>>> text in a formalism such as CRM, one of the meaning must be chosen 
>>>>>> (or maybe several, but always fewer than the potential total number 
>>>>>> of possible meaning).
>>>>>> In short, is this not a case similar to underspecification?
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Øyvind Eide
>>>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>>>>>> Unit for Digital Documentation, University of Oslo
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  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
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