[Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise

Stephen Stead steads at paveprime.org
Sat Dec 12 17:20:36 EET 2009

Dear all
Just got back from Brazil and realised that the "sunrise" is not the event
but "watching the sunrise" is the event! It was a very pretty sunrise as we
flew into Heathrow!!

Stephen Stead
Tel +44 20 8668 3075 
Mob +44 7802 755 013
E-mail steads at paveprime.com

-----Original Message-----
From: martin [mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr] 
Sent: 11 December 2009 19:25
To: steads at paveprime.com
Cc: c.e.s.ore at iln.uio.no; 'crm-sig'
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise

Dear All,

I agree with Steve here, and suggest to change the example to a battle or

To make my point with the event:

We must not confuse what an E5 is with what an event is. I am not concerned
if the sunrise is an "event"
in the linguistic sense. It is indeed an event in the sense of physics.

If we regard that the definition
of E5 should pertain to endurants leaving potentially traces or evidence,
the events of
conditions on states of affairs being fulfilled do not qualify for E5. Such
events to my opinion neither have a natural notion of participants and
things being present.
To my understanding, a sunrise neither has well-defined things present, nor
boundaries, nor does it leave traces. I first have to define the place to
identify the sunrise.
In battles, the battle identifies the place, and not otherwise round. If we
accept notions
comprising such fundamental differences of behaviour, we have no chance to
introduce any advanced
CRM-based reasoning.

I would like to take the occasion of this example to
discuss situations as an alternative concept, not to introduce it into the
CRM, but to understand
where it could appear in the CRM. I regard a sunrise as a "situation". If we
regard then "situation" IsA Temporal Entity,
then the sunrise is E2, and we avoid all ambiguities.



Stephen Stead wrote:
> Dear all
> I think we may be getting lost here. If the "sunrise" is a particular one
> not does not really matter UNLESS some other documentation refers to the
> same "sunrise". If there is, or we suspect that there is, then it is an
> event. If not then it is only necessary to link (P62) to the concept of a
> sunrise so that we can find it as an example of the use of the concept.
> Probably rather reductionist but it works I think. For the Munch then we
> know there is documentation that points to the stroll-event, so it is an
> event; part of the event (P9) is a E65 Creation/F27 Work Conception.
> I think that this allows us to do everything in our intended scope but I
> be wrong!
> Rgds
> SdS
> Stephen Stead
> Tel +44 20 8668 3075 
> Mob +44 7802 755 013
> E-mail steads at paveprime.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr [mailto:crm-sig-bounces at ics.forth.gr]
> Behalf Of Christian-Emil Ore
> Sent: 11 December 2009 08:40
> To: martin
> Cc: crm-sig
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise
> Hi
> A sunrise is an event. In the Monet case it may or may not be. In the 
> case the painting describes a generalised conceptual understanding of a 
> sunrise it is in my opinion not.
> The Norwegian painter Edvard Munch connects  in his writings his 
> painting "Scream" to a  concrete event when he and some friends walked 
> in a park just outside  the centre of Oslo (Kristiania)  in the early 
> 1880s apparently in the late afternoon (early spring or late autumn) 
> when the sun was setting and Munch got the sensation of the existential 
> scream of nature. Thus the painting depicts this feeling (concept) as 
> well as in some sense the  stroll-event.
> (http://www.munch.museum.no/ekko/gr/skrik.htm)
> I think d) is the best solution but the Munch example may be too 
> complicated from a pedagogical point of view although it is a pretty 
> well known painting.
> Regards,
> Christian-Emil
> On 10.12.2009 21:35, martin wrote:
>> Are you sure? Did Monet not paint in the nature? I remember some French
>> term of plein-airists...
>> We have four choices:
>> a) accept the sunrise as event
>> b) find a better class for the sunrise
>> c) regard the depiction as conceptual, but for an IMPRESSIONIST, that 
>> causes me headaches
>> d) find a less ambiguous example and postpone our understanding of the 
>> true nature of the sunrise
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>> Christian-Emil Ore wrote:
>>> I have another comment. Monet painting does not depict any particular 
>>> sunrise, just the concept of the sun rising (over Le Havre). So the 
>>> example should perhaps be replaced or changed from event to type or 
>>> conceptual object.
>>> Chr-Emil
>>> On 10.12.2009 16:03, martin wrote:
>>>> Dear Oeyvind,
>>>> Sure, we know what a sunrise is. I meant, what is the superclass of 
>>>> "sunrise" in the CRM.
>>>> I could regard it, as you say, as just a time-span (with time-zone). 
>>>> An E5 Event should bring about
>>>> a change of state. That it will be daylight after the sunrise could 
>>>> be regarded as a change of state, even
>>>> though the daylight line just sweeps over the earth. There is
>>>> however no interaction associated with it, as with any other 
>>>> occurrence patterns between
>>>> independtly moving things. There is no objective notion of 
>>>> "participants". There is no notion
>>>> of things "meeting", except may be for the photons. In this sense, 
>>>> driving a car from A to B could
>>>> be seen as consisting of thousands of events of passing stones next 
>>>> to the road.
>>>> We could regard is as E4 Period, since in the scope note we say, 
>>>> there is no need for change of state,
>>>> and assign a place and time to it.
>>>>  From a point of physics, there is no energy-mediated interaction 
>>>> between the participants, as with activities,
>>>> building crashes etc.
>>>> Just to clarify, where the borders of an event are. Is "passing by" 
>>>> at a distance without interaction an event
>>>> in the sense we need for the CRM? Do I pass by Auckland in a sense on 
>>>> my way from home to my bureau in Heraklion?
>>>> I suspect we are touching the notion of "situation" we have avoided 
>>>> to model so far.
>>>> Interesting problem, isn't it?
>>>> Best,
>>>> Martin
>>>> Øyvind Eide wrote:
>>>>> Den 10. des.. 2009 kl. 14.38 skrev martin:
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> "“Impression Sunrise” by Monet (E84) depicts sun rising over Le 
>>>>>> Havre (E5) mode of depiction Impressionistic (E55)" :
>>>>>> One may argue, that "Sunrise over Le Havre" depicts a place and a 
>>>>>> certain timespan, but the sunrise itself might
>>>>>> not be seen as a process in the sense of the CRM, since it is just 
>>>>>> a question of a view on a constellation of deeply
>>>>>> independent things (rather a "situation"). May be, we should avoid 
>>>>>> the example, until we better know what a sunrise is?
>>>>> Dear Martin, and all,
>>>>> If we do not know now what a sunrise is, will we know better in the 
>>>>> future?
>>>>> I think the problem is not the word "sunrise". It is a normal word 
>>>>> with several related meanings: e.g. " a time of day", or "any 
>>>>> (major) awakening", as a dictionary will tell us.
>>>>> The problem is rather than when such a word is used in the title of 
>>>>> a painting, the meaning is not fixed, so that it can mean the time 
>>>>> of day, or it can mean the start of a new, totally different part of 
>>>>> person's life, just to take two examples. In order to model such a 
>>>>> text in a formalism such as CRM, one of the meaning must be chosen 
>>>>> (or maybe several, but always fewer than the potential total number 
>>>>> of possible meaning).
>>>>> In short, is this not a case similar to underspecification?
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Øyvind Eide
>>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>>>>> Unit for Digital Documentation, University of Oslo
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  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
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