[Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise

Vladimir Ivanov nomemm at gmail.com
Fri Dec 11 19:16:53 EET 2009

Dear All,

Could someone explain me what the purpose of documenting
a "depicted" sunrise as an separate Event?
(but of course sunrise is an Event!)

Anyone can paint a picture and name it "Tomorrow sunrise".
Should we then document that _future_ sunrise in the CIDOC CRM as an
"event in the future"?
Much more headache )

My choice: d)


2009/12/11 Øyvind Eide <oyvind.eide at iln.uio.no>:
> A fascinating discussion. But instead of going into the question if
> one should trust the painter to explain what a painting depicts, I
> will choose the solution of the coward:
> In order to make it easier to understand the example for a reader/user
> of CRM, I would suggest an example is chosen where there is a simple,
> main referent of the image, and where that referent is a typical
> event. A battle or a beheading or a marriage or something. Something
> like Jacques-Louis David's "The Coronation of Napoleon".
> Regards,
> Øyvind
> Den 11. des.. 2009 kl. 09.40 skrev Christian-Emil Ore:
>> Hi
>> A sunrise is an event. In the Monet case it may or may not be. In
>> the case the painting describes a generalised conceptual
>> understanding of a sunrise it is in my opinion not.
>> The Norwegian painter Edvard Munch connects  in his writings his
>> painting "Scream" to a  concrete event when he and some friends
>> walked in a park just outside  the centre of Oslo (Kristiania)  in
>> the early 1880s apparently in the late afternoon (early spring or
>> late autumn) when the sun was setting and Munch got the sensation of
>> the existential scream of nature. Thus the painting depicts this
>> feeling (concept) as well as in some sense the  stroll-event.
>> (http://www.munch.museum.no/ekko/gr/skrik.htm)
>> I think d) is the best solution but the Munch example may be too
>> complicated from a pedagogical point of view although it is a pretty
>> well known painting.
>> Regards,
>> Christian-Emil
>> On 10.12.2009 21:35, martin wrote:
>>> Are you sure? Did Monet not paint in the nature? I remember some
>>> French
>>> term of plein-airists...
>>> We have four choices:
>>> a) accept the sunrise as event
>>> b) find a better class for the sunrise
>>> c) regard the depiction as conceptual, but for an IMPRESSIONIST,
>>> that causes me headaches
>>> d) find a less ambiguous example and postpone our understanding of
>>> the true nature of the sunrise
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin
>>> Christian-Emil Ore wrote:
>>>> I have another comment. Monet painting does not depict any
>>>> particular sunrise, just the concept of the sun rising (over Le
>>>> Havre). So the example should perhaps be replaced or changed from
>>>> event to type or conceptual object.
>>>> Chr-Emil
>>>> On 10.12.2009 16:03, martin wrote:
>>>>> Dear Oeyvind,
>>>>> Sure, we know what a sunrise is. I meant, what is the superclass
>>>>> of "sunrise" in the CRM.
>>>>> I could regard it, as you say, as just a time-span (with time-
>>>>> zone). An E5 Event should bring about
>>>>> a change of state. That it will be daylight after the sunrise
>>>>> could be regarded as a change of state, even
>>>>> though the daylight line just sweeps over the earth. There is
>>>>> however no interaction associated with it, as with any other
>>>>> occurrence patterns between
>>>>> independtly moving things. There is no objective notion of
>>>>> "participants". There is no notion
>>>>> of things "meeting", except may be for the photons. In this
>>>>> sense, driving a car from A to B could
>>>>> be seen as consisting of thousands of events of passing stones
>>>>> next to the road.
>>>>> We could regard is as E4 Period, since in the scope note we say,
>>>>> there is no need for change of state,
>>>>> and assign a place and time to it.
>>>>> From a point of physics, there is no energy-mediated interaction
>>>>> between the participants, as with activities,
>>>>> building crashes etc.
>>>>> Just to clarify, where the borders of an event are. Is "passing
>>>>> by" at a distance without interaction an event
>>>>> in the sense we need for the CRM? Do I pass by Auckland in a
>>>>> sense on my way from home to my bureau in Heraklion?
>>>>> I suspect we are touching the notion of "situation" we have
>>>>> avoided to model so far.
>>>>> Interesting problem, isn't it?
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Martin
>>>>> Øyvind Eide wrote:
>>>>>> Den 10. des.. 2009 kl. 14.38 skrev martin:
>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>> "“Impression Sunrise” by Monet (E84) depicts sun rising over Le
>>>>>>> Havre (E5) mode of depiction Impressionistic (E55)" :
>>>>>>> One may argue, that "Sunrise over Le Havre" depicts a place and
>>>>>>> a certain timespan, but the sunrise itself might
>>>>>>> not be seen as a process in the sense of the CRM, since it is
>>>>>>> just a question of a view on a constellation of deeply
>>>>>>> independent things (rather a "situation"). May be, we should
>>>>>>> avoid the example, until we better know what a sunrise is?
>>>>>> Dear Martin, and all,
>>>>>> If we do not know now what a sunrise is, will we know better in
>>>>>> the future?
>>>>>> I think the problem is not the word "sunrise". It is a normal
>>>>>> word with several related meanings: e.g. " a time of day", or
>>>>>> "any (major) awakening", as a dictionary will tell us.
>>>>>> The problem is rather than when such a word is used in the title
>>>>>> of a painting, the meaning is not fixed, so that it can mean the
>>>>>> time of day, or it can mean the start of a new, totally
>>>>>> different part of person's life, just to take two examples. In
>>>>>> order to model such a text in a formalism such as CRM, one of
>>>>>> the meaning must be chosen (or maybe several, but always fewer
>>>>>> than the potential total number of possible meaning).
>>>>>> In short, is this not a case similar to underspecification?
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Øyvind Eide
>>>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>>>>>> Unit for Digital Documentation, University of Oslo
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С уважением,
Владимир Иванов
младший научный сотрудник
лаборатории математической и
компьютерной лингвистики
НИИММ им. Н.Г. Чеботарева
Казанского государственного университета

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