[Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise

João Oliveira Lima joaoli13 at gmail.com
Fri Dec 11 14:49:11 EET 2009


My choice: "b) find a better class for the sunrise" . I think the "E3
Condition State" Class could be used to represent the "Sunrise over Le
Havre"?

Regards

Joao Lima

(E3 Condition State Scope Note: This class comprises the states of objects
characterised by a certain condition over a time-span)

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 6:35 PM, martin <martin at ics.forth.gr> wrote:

> Are you sure? Did Monet not paint in the nature? I remember some French
> term of plein-airists...
>
> We have four choices:
>
> a) accept the sunrise as event
> b) find a better class for the sunrise
> c) regard the depiction as conceptual, but for an IMPRESSIONIST, that
> causes me headaches
> d) find a less ambiguous example and postpone our understanding of the true
> nature of the sunrise
>
> Cheers,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> Christian-Emil Ore wrote:
> > I have another comment. Monet painting does not depict any particular
> > sunrise, just the concept of the sun rising (over Le Havre). So the
> > example should perhaps be replaced or changed from event to type or
> > conceptual object.
> >
> > Chr-Emil
> >
> >
> > On 10.12.2009 16:03, martin wrote:
> >> Dear Oeyvind,
> >>
> >> Sure, we know what a sunrise is. I meant, what is the superclass of
> >> "sunrise" in the CRM.
> >> I could regard it, as you say, as just a time-span (with time-zone).
> >> An E5 Event should bring about
> >> a change of state. That it will be daylight after the sunrise could be
> >> regarded as a change of state, even
> >> though the daylight line just sweeps over the earth. There is
> >> however no interaction associated with it, as with any other
> >> occurrence patterns between
> >> independtly moving things. There is no objective notion of
> >> "participants". There is no notion
> >> of things "meeting", except may be for the photons. In this sense,
> >> driving a car from A to B could
> >> be seen as consisting of thousands of events of passing stones next to
> >> the road.
> >>
> >> We could regard is as E4 Period, since in the scope note we say, there
> >> is no need for change of state,
> >> and assign a place and time to it.
> >>
> >>  From a point of physics, there is no energy-mediated interaction
> >> between the participants, as with activities,
> >> building crashes etc.
> >>
> >> Just to clarify, where the borders of an event are. Is "passing by" at
> >> a distance without interaction an event
> >> in the sense we need for the CRM? Do I pass by Auckland in a sense on
> >> my way from home to my bureau in Heraklion?
> >>
> >> I suspect we are touching the notion of "situation" we have avoided to
> >> model so far.
> >>
> >> Interesting problem, isn't it?
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >> Øyvind Eide wrote:
> >>> Den 10. des.. 2009 kl. 14.38 skrev martin:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>> "“Impression Sunrise” by Monet (E84) depicts sun rising over Le
> >>>> Havre (E5) mode of depiction Impressionistic (E55)" :
> >>>>
> >>>> One may argue, that "Sunrise over Le Havre" depicts a place and a
> >>>> certain timespan, but the sunrise itself might
> >>>> not be seen as a process in the sense of the CRM, since it is just a
> >>>> question of a view on a constellation of deeply
> >>>> independent things (rather a "situation"). May be, we should avoid
> >>>> the example, until we better know what a sunrise is?
> >>> Dear Martin, and all,
> >>>
> >>> If we do not know now what a sunrise is, will we know better in the
> >>> future?
> >>>
> >>> I think the problem is not the word "sunrise". It is a normal word
> >>> with several related meanings: e.g. " a time of day", or "any (major)
> >>> awakening", as a dictionary will tell us.
> >>>
> >>> The problem is rather than when such a word is used in the title of a
> >>> painting, the meaning is not fixed, so that it can mean the time of
> >>> day, or it can mean the start of a new, totally different part of
> >>> person's life, just to take two examples. In order to model such a
> >>> text in a formalism such as CRM, one of the meaning must be chosen
> >>> (or maybe several, but always fewer than the potential total number
> >>> of possible meaning).
> >>>
> >>> In short, is this not a case similar to underspecification?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kind regards,
> >>>
> >>> Øyvind Eide
> >>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
> >>> Unit for Digital Documentation, University of Oslo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>  Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>                                                              |
>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>                                                              |
>  Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>                                                              |
>          Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.ics.forth.gr/pipermail/crm-sig/attachments/20091211/4fa7fa4c/attachment.htm 


More information about the Crm-sig mailing list