[Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise
martin at ics.forth.gr
Thu Dec 10 22:35:07 EET 2009
Are you sure? Did Monet not paint in the nature? I remember some French
term of plein-airists...
We have four choices:
a) accept the sunrise as event
b) find a better class for the sunrise
c) regard the depiction as conceptual, but for an IMPRESSIONIST, that causes me headaches
d) find a less ambiguous example and postpone our understanding of the true nature of the sunrise
Christian-Emil Ore wrote:
> I have another comment. Monet painting does not depict any particular
> sunrise, just the concept of the sun rising (over Le Havre). So the
> example should perhaps be replaced or changed from event to type or
> conceptual object.
> On 10.12.2009 16:03, martin wrote:
>> Dear Oeyvind,
>> Sure, we know what a sunrise is. I meant, what is the superclass of
>> "sunrise" in the CRM.
>> I could regard it, as you say, as just a time-span (with time-zone).
>> An E5 Event should bring about
>> a change of state. That it will be daylight after the sunrise could be
>> regarded as a change of state, even
>> though the daylight line just sweeps over the earth. There is
>> however no interaction associated with it, as with any other
>> occurrence patterns between
>> independtly moving things. There is no objective notion of
>> "participants". There is no notion
>> of things "meeting", except may be for the photons. In this sense,
>> driving a car from A to B could
>> be seen as consisting of thousands of events of passing stones next to
>> the road.
>> We could regard is as E4 Period, since in the scope note we say, there
>> is no need for change of state,
>> and assign a place and time to it.
>> From a point of physics, there is no energy-mediated interaction
>> between the participants, as with activities,
>> building crashes etc.
>> Just to clarify, where the borders of an event are. Is "passing by" at
>> a distance without interaction an event
>> in the sense we need for the CRM? Do I pass by Auckland in a sense on
>> my way from home to my bureau in Heraklion?
>> I suspect we are touching the notion of "situation" we have avoided to
>> model so far.
>> Interesting problem, isn't it?
>> Øyvind Eide wrote:
>>> Den 10. des.. 2009 kl. 14.38 skrev martin:
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> "“Impression Sunrise” by Monet (E84) depicts sun rising over Le
>>>> Havre (E5) mode of depiction Impressionistic (E55)" :
>>>> One may argue, that "Sunrise over Le Havre" depicts a place and a
>>>> certain timespan, but the sunrise itself might
>>>> not be seen as a process in the sense of the CRM, since it is just a
>>>> question of a view on a constellation of deeply
>>>> independent things (rather a "situation"). May be, we should avoid
>>>> the example, until we better know what a sunrise is?
>>> Dear Martin, and all,
>>> If we do not know now what a sunrise is, will we know better in the
>>> I think the problem is not the word "sunrise". It is a normal word
>>> with several related meanings: e.g. " a time of day", or "any (major)
>>> awakening", as a dictionary will tell us.
>>> The problem is rather than when such a word is used in the title of a
>>> painting, the meaning is not fixed, so that it can mean the time of
>>> day, or it can mean the start of a new, totally different part of
>>> person's life, just to take two examples. In order to model such a
>>> text in a formalism such as CRM, one of the meaning must be chosen
>>> (or maybe several, but always fewer than the potential total number
>>> of possible meaning).
>>> In short, is this not a case similar to underspecification?
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Øyvind Eide
>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>>> Unit for Digital Documentation, University of Oslo
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Principle Researcher | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
More information about the Crm-sig