[Crm-sig] Issue: questionable Sunrise

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Thu Dec 10 22:35:07 EET 2009

Are you sure? Did Monet not paint in the nature? I remember some French
term of plein-airists...

We have four choices:

a) accept the sunrise as event
b) find a better class for the sunrise
c) regard the depiction as conceptual, but for an IMPRESSIONIST, that causes me headaches
d) find a less ambiguous example and postpone our understanding of the true nature of the sunrise



Christian-Emil Ore wrote:
> I have another comment. Monet painting does not depict any particular 
> sunrise, just the concept of the sun rising (over Le Havre). So the 
> example should perhaps be replaced or changed from event to type or 
> conceptual object.
> Chr-Emil
> On 10.12.2009 16:03, martin wrote:
>> Dear Oeyvind,
>> Sure, we know what a sunrise is. I meant, what is the superclass of 
>> "sunrise" in the CRM.
>> I could regard it, as you say, as just a time-span (with time-zone). 
>> An E5 Event should bring about
>> a change of state. That it will be daylight after the sunrise could be 
>> regarded as a change of state, even
>> though the daylight line just sweeps over the earth. There is
>> however no interaction associated with it, as with any other 
>> occurrence patterns between
>> independtly moving things. There is no objective notion of 
>> "participants". There is no notion
>> of things "meeting", except may be for the photons. In this sense, 
>> driving a car from A to B could
>> be seen as consisting of thousands of events of passing stones next to 
>> the road.
>> We could regard is as E4 Period, since in the scope note we say, there 
>> is no need for change of state,
>> and assign a place and time to it.
>>  From a point of physics, there is no energy-mediated interaction 
>> between the participants, as with activities,
>> building crashes etc.
>> Just to clarify, where the borders of an event are. Is "passing by" at 
>> a distance without interaction an event
>> in the sense we need for the CRM? Do I pass by Auckland in a sense on 
>> my way from home to my bureau in Heraklion?
>> I suspect we are touching the notion of "situation" we have avoided to 
>> model so far.
>> Interesting problem, isn't it?
>> Best,
>> Martin
>> Øyvind Eide wrote:
>>> Den 10. des.. 2009 kl. 14.38 skrev martin:
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> "“Impression Sunrise” by Monet (E84) depicts sun rising over Le 
>>>> Havre (E5) mode of depiction Impressionistic (E55)" :
>>>> One may argue, that "Sunrise over Le Havre" depicts a place and a 
>>>> certain timespan, but the sunrise itself might
>>>> not be seen as a process in the sense of the CRM, since it is just a 
>>>> question of a view on a constellation of deeply
>>>> independent things (rather a "situation"). May be, we should avoid 
>>>> the example, until we better know what a sunrise is?
>>> Dear Martin, and all,
>>> If we do not know now what a sunrise is, will we know better in the 
>>> future?
>>> I think the problem is not the word "sunrise". It is a normal word 
>>> with several related meanings: e.g. " a time of day", or "any (major) 
>>> awakening", as a dictionary will tell us.
>>> The problem is rather than when such a word is used in the title of a 
>>> painting, the meaning is not fixed, so that it can mean the time of 
>>> day, or it can mean the start of a new, totally different part of 
>>> person's life, just to take two examples. In order to model such a 
>>> text in a formalism such as CRM, one of the meaning must be chosen 
>>> (or maybe several, but always fewer than the potential total number 
>>> of possible meaning).
>>> In short, is this not a case similar to underspecification?
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Øyvind Eide
>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>>> Unit for Digital Documentation, University of Oslo


  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
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