[Crm-sig] P107.1 and P144.1, a negative vote

Christian-Emil Ore c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no
Mon Nov 24 09:53:24 EET 2008


Dear all,
I will write a little note about the singleton and the groups. I will 
just point out that the current scope note of group, states explicitly 
that a group must have two or more members. The scope note does not say 
anything about time since the persistent items are timeless. Thus I 
assume that an office like the presidency of US is a group.

There is also another aspect with group, "act collectively or in a 
similar way due to any form of unifying relationship". The question is 
if all related persons have this property.?
Chr-Emi

Scope note
This class comprises any gatherings or organizations of two or more 
people that act collectively or in a similar way due to any form of 
unifying relationship


On 21.11.2008 18:30, martin wrote:
> 
> 
> c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no wrote:
>> Dear Martin and all
>> I still think it is artifical because one in this way use groups as
>> extensions of thought predicates. This is of course already introduce by
>> the use of group as a way to simulate/implement  interpersonal 
>> relations. I am not quit sure I buy the argument that this is the 
>> ontological nature.
>> It also moves much of the deduction from the CRM "proper" to the type
>> system.
>>
>> The most important thing for "my" user group is the short cut and not the
>> elaborated path, because in written source one usually only get
>> information about the relation and nothing more.  I am interested to see
>> how the shortcut is done in this set approach
>>
>> So I will no withdraw my suggestion until convinced or down voted.
>>
>> Ad voting in the SIG. I think secret voting like in this case is not a
>> good patrh to follow. I  prefer an open dabate.
> 
> Of course, I didn't want to count the vote, but I found the idea 
> interesting,
> always in the spirit of keeping CRM a core model.
> 
> If no other votes come in until Monday, I regard the issue as accepted.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Martin
>>
>> Regards,
>> Christian-Emil
>>
>>> Dear Christian-Emil,
>>>
>>> Yes, this is the solution. Of course you may argue, that it is more
>>> indirect.
>>> P107 is both, individual member and subgroup membership. So, there is a
>>> subgroup
>>> membership. My question, you may express the problem with "very
>>> artificial", is actually
>>> what the ontological nature, the substance of the roles are. If they are
>>> positions,
>>> personae, they would be not so much relations between an Individual and
>>> the Group, but a
>>> structure of the Group, and would be better expressed by specializations
>>> of Groups and
>>> their parts. If we regard them as relational, they are better 
>>> expressed by
>>> subproperties
>>> or 107.1 . If we keep 107.1, and regard nevertheless the model of
>>> singleton Groups as valid,
>>> then, p107.1 would represent shortcuts over singleton Groups.
>>>
>>> Opinions?
>>>
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no wrote:
>>>> Dear all
>>>> First of all it is difficult to comment a solution which is not
>>>> presented
>>>> but just referred to. I assume that this unknown suggested solution is
>>>> as
>>>> follows:
>>>>
>>>> Assume a master and an apprentice: An actor can be the only member of a
>>>> singleton group. The relationship master.-apprentice can be 
>>>> expressed as
>>>> a
>>>> group having the master-singleton and the apprentice-singleton as
>>>> members.
>>>> The type of the singleton-group can express the relation the members
>>>> have
>>>> in the master-apprentice group. If this is the solution it is of course
>>>> possible but very artificial like epicycle models of  the planet 
>>>> orbits.
>>>>
>>>> I may be blind, but I dont find any sub group property in the model.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Christian-Emil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just received a contribution voting against P107.1 and P144.1,
>>>>>
>>>>> with the argument that following our definition of Group, it can be
>>>>> also
>>>>> an office or
>>>>> position. So, we could model master and apprentice as subgroups - no
>>>>> need
>>>>> for any extension.
>>>>> Also, this could consistently describe changing positions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>>   Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>>>                                                               |
>>>>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>>                                                               |
>>>>>   Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>>>>                                                               |
>>>>>           Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>   Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>                                                               |
>>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>                                                               |
>>>   Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>>                                                               |
>>>           Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 



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