[Crm-sig] P107.1 and P144.1, a negative vote

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Fri Nov 21 19:30:43 EET 2008



c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no wrote:
> Dear Martin and all
> I still think it is artifical because one in this way use groups as
> extensions of thought predicates. This is of course already introduce by
> the use of group as a way to simulate/implement  interpersonal relations. 
> I am not quit sure I buy the argument that this is the ontological nature.
> It also moves much of the deduction from the CRM "proper" to the type
> system.
> 
> The most important thing for "my" user group is the short cut and not the
> elaborated path, because in written source one usually only get
> information about the relation and nothing more.  I am interested to see
> how the shortcut is done in this set approach
> 
> So I will no withdraw my suggestion until convinced or down voted.
> 
> Ad voting in the SIG. I think secret voting like in this case is not a
> good patrh to follow. I  prefer an open dabate.

Of course, I didn't want to count the vote, but I found the idea interesting,
always in the spirit of keeping CRM a core model.

If no other votes come in until Monday, I regard the issue as accepted.

Best,

Martin
> 
> Regards,
> Christian-Emil
> 
>> Dear Christian-Emil,
>>
>> Yes, this is the solution. Of course you may argue, that it is more
>> indirect.
>> P107 is both, individual member and subgroup membership. So, there is a
>> subgroup
>> membership. My question, you may express the problem with "very
>> artificial", is actually
>> what the ontological nature, the substance of the roles are. If they are
>> positions,
>> personae, they would be not so much relations between an Individual and
>> the Group, but a
>> structure of the Group, and would be better expressed by specializations
>> of Groups and
>> their parts. If we regard them as relational, they are better expressed by
>> subproperties
>> or 107.1 . If we keep 107.1, and regard nevertheless the model of
>> singleton Groups as valid,
>> then, p107.1 would represent shortcuts over singleton Groups.
>>
>> Opinions?
>>
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no wrote:
>>> Dear all
>>> First of all it is difficult to comment a solution which is not
>>> presented
>>> but just referred to. I assume that this unknown suggested solution is
>>> as
>>> follows:
>>>
>>> Assume a master and an apprentice: An actor can be the only member of a
>>> singleton group. The relationship master.-apprentice can be expressed as
>>> a
>>> group having the master-singleton and the apprentice-singleton as
>>> members.
>>> The type of the singleton-group can express the relation the members
>>> have
>>> in the master-apprentice group. If this is the solution it is of course
>>> possible but very artificial like epicycle models of  the planet orbits.
>>>
>>> I may be blind, but I dont find any sub group property in the model.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Christian-Emil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> I just received a contribution voting against P107.1 and P144.1,
>>>>
>>>> with the argument that following our definition of Group, it can be
>>>> also
>>>> an office or
>>>> position. So, we could model master and apprentice as subgroups - no
>>>> need
>>>> for any extension.
>>>> Also, this could consistently describe changing positions.
>>>>
>>>> Comments welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>   Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>   Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>>>                                                               |
>>>>           Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>   Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>                                                               |
>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>                                                               |
>>   Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>                                                               |
>>           Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
  Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
                                                              |
          Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
--------------------------------------------------------------



More information about the Crm-sig mailing list