[Crm-sig] P107.1 and P144.1, a negative vote

c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no
Fri Nov 21 15:46:35 EET 2008


Dear Martin and all
I still think it is artifical because one in this way use groups as
extensions of thought predicates. This is of course already introduce by
the use of group as a way to simulate/implement  interpersonal relations. 
I am not quit sure I buy the argument that this is the ontological nature.
It also moves much of the deduction from the CRM "proper" to the type
system.

The most important thing for "my" user group is the short cut and not the
elaborated path, because in written source one usually only get
information about the relation and nothing more.  I am interested to see
how the shortcut is done in this set approach

So I will no withdraw my suggestion until convinced or down voted.

Ad voting in the SIG. I think secret voting like in this case is not a
good patrh to follow. I  prefer an open dabate.

Regards,
Christian-Emil

> Dear Christian-Emil,
>
> Yes, this is the solution. Of course you may argue, that it is more
> indirect.
> P107 is both, individual member and subgroup membership. So, there is a
> subgroup
> membership. My question, you may express the problem with "very
> artificial", is actually
> what the ontological nature, the substance of the roles are. If they are
> positions,
> personae, they would be not so much relations between an Individual and
> the Group, but a
> structure of the Group, and would be better expressed by specializations
> of Groups and
> their parts. If we regard them as relational, they are better expressed by
> subproperties
> or 107.1 . If we keep 107.1, and regard nevertheless the model of
> singleton Groups as valid,
> then, p107.1 would represent shortcuts over singleton Groups.
>
> Opinions?
>
>
> Martin
>
> c.e.s.ore at edd.uio.no wrote:
>> Dear all
>> First of all it is difficult to comment a solution which is not
>> presented
>> but just referred to. I assume that this unknown suggested solution is
>> as
>> follows:
>>
>> Assume a master and an apprentice: An actor can be the only member of a
>> singleton group. The relationship master.-apprentice can be expressed as
>> a
>> group having the master-singleton and the apprentice-singleton as
>> members.
>> The type of the singleton-group can express the relation the members
>> have
>> in the master-apprentice group. If this is the solution it is of course
>> possible but very artificial like epicycle models of  the planet orbits.
>>
>> I may be blind, but I dont find any sub group property in the model.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Christian-Emil
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I just received a contribution voting against P107.1 and P144.1,
>>>
>>> with the argument that following our definition of Group, it can be
>>> also
>>> an office or
>>> position. So, we could model master and apprentice as subgroups - no
>>> need
>>> for any extension.
>>> Also, this could consistently describe changing positions.
>>>
>>> Comments welcome.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>> --
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>   Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>                                                               |
>>>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>                                                               |
>>>   Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>>                                                               |
>>>           Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>> Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>   Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>                                 |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>                                                               |
>                 Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>                 Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                  Institute of Computer Science                |
>     Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>                                                               |
>   Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>                                                               |
>           Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>




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