[Crm-sig] Issue, propositional and Information object scope notes

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Thu Apr 24 20:13:24 EEST 2008


Vladimir Ivanov wrote:
> Dear Martin,
> 
> Thanks a lot for the answers.
> 
> Sorry, for my last (quite stupid) question.
> 
>>> What if information object is neither a proposition nor represents
>>> propositions?
> 
> I thought that "to represent propositions" is a significant feature of
> E73 (inherited from E89, of course),
> which is not mentioned in the E73's scope note.
Yes
> 
> On the one hand,  this scope note refers to an extension (or to
> possible types of information objects):
> "identifiable immaterial items, such as a poems, jokes, data sets, images,
> texts, multimedia objects, procedural prescriptions, computer program
> code, algorithm or
> mathematical formulae ...".
> 
> It sounds like possible values of property P2 (has type) for the E73
> class and overlaps with E89's scope note:
> "...immaterial items, such as stories, plots, procedural
> prescriptions, algorithms, laws of physics, images..."
> (this, however, might pay its way for the clarity of the model)
This is intentional , since E89 is a superclass.
> 
> On the other hand, statement "Information Object is a Propositional
> Object" is explicitly held by class hierarchy,
> so there are no reasons to add this information in a scope note.
We found the redundancy useful for those that do not grasp subsumtion easily.
> 
> Should we refine scope notes of subclasses if we introduced new
> superclass or only to precise scope note of that superclass?
may be good to do so.
> 
> (possible beginning of the E73  scope note):
> "This class comprises identifiable instances of the E89 Propositional
> Object, that have an objectively recognizable structure... ".
E73 combines E89 and E90, see may latest post. May become clumsy to
say that explicitly?
> 
> 
> One more question (E89 is a E72 ?):
> Now E89 Propositional Object is not a E72 Legal Object.
> Can instances of E30 Right, such as the right of ownership or use, be
> applied to E89 Propositional Objects?
> Why not? Because of impossibility of identification?
Yes, that was the idea, but may be we have to revise that now. There are
rights on ideas, such as patents, which do not depend on the symbolic form.

Good remark!

Best,

Martin
> 
> Best regards,
> Vladimir
> 
> 2008/4/21 martin <martin at ics.forth.gr>:
>> Dear Vladimir,
>>
>>  Good remarks!
>>
>>
>>  Vladimir Ivanov wrote:
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> The first question is about the meaning of "...in some sense..." phrase,
>>> which may lead to multiple (incompatible?) interpretations.
>>>
>>  Right. My idea was to be relatively inclusive here. A particular headache
>> is
>>  to which degree an image can be said to be about something. It is a dumb
>> color distribution,
>>  but we read it as a meeting of Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt. Does it
>> "say"
>>  something? If yes, this is one sense. The literal phrase "Stalin met
>> Roosevelt" would be another sense,
>>  and the language neutral form of this as an information going through the
>> news in
>>  many languages yet another.
>>  Any set of measurement data from a scientific experiment may be seen as
>> propositions about
>>  the measured thing, via understanding of the apparatus behind. yet another
>> sense.
>>  Finally, music may fall completely out of it. Does Music "speak" to us, as
>> non-figural art?
>>  The basic question is, how wide a definition is useful for information
>> integration.
>>  The distinction between content and encoding is sometimes useful, sometimes
>> not. In the
>>  CRM, we can either ignore it or try to formulate it to have a place where
>> both views come together.
>>
>>  To be discussed!
>>
>>
>>
>>> The second one...
>>> Is it possible to imagine something that is not an E73 Information object,
>>> and is a E89 Propositional Object (in the sense of the CRM scopes)?
>>> For example:
>>> Is there immaterial item that is or represent at least 1 proposition, but
>>> have no objectively recognizable structure, or depend on a specific
>>> physical carrier?
>>>
>>  The example I gave for that was the common plot of the two movies. Even
>> though
>>  we see the theme taken from Kurosawa, it is very difficult to formulate in
>> what exactly
>>  are the commonalities. These commonalities represent to say so a core
>> story, hence they
>>  consist of propositions?
>>
>>
>>
>>> If there are no such instances, then E89 is alias for E73.
>>>
>>> The third question:
>>> What if information object is neither a proposition nor represents
>> propositions?
>>  Information Object is a subclass of Propositional Object. So, necessarily,
>> Information Objects
>>  contain propositions.
>>
>>  We said identifiers or names are symbolic objects that do not represent
>> propositions. So they
>>  are not Information Objects, but have an objectively recognizable
>> structure, as Information Objects
>>  do.
>>
>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Vladimir
>>>
>>> 2008/4/17, martin <martin at ics.forth.gr>:
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>>  Attached a proposal of a scope note for E89 Propositional Object. This
>>>> class would
>>>>  allow us to model the distinction of symbolic form and conceptual
>> content
>>>> on top of
>>>>  E73 Information Object, which combines both.
>>>>
>>>>  Best
>>>>
>>>>  martin
>>>>  --
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>>>  Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>>>                               |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>>>                                                             |
>>>>               Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>>>               Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>>>                Institute of Computer Science                |
>>>>   Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>>>                                                             |
>>>>  Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>>>                                                             |
>>>>         Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>  Crm-sig mailing list
>>>>  Crm-sig at ics.forth.gr
>>>>  http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>  --
>>
>>
>>  --------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>>   Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>>                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
>>                                                              |
>>                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>>                Information Systems Laboratory                |
>>                 Institute of Computer Science                |
>>    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>>                                                              |
>>   Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>>                                                              |
>>          Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
>>  --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
> 


-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
  Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
                                                              |
          Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
--------------------------------------------------------------



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