[Crm-sig] Issue, propositional object scope note

martin martin at ics.forth.gr
Mon Apr 21 15:22:33 EEST 2008


Dear Joao,

Very good points.

Generally speaking, the CRM is defined to foster information integration,
and not term differentiation. So, a norrower definition might be counterproductive,
and possibly we need more elaborate scope notes to differentiate our wider
meanings from others, narrowers, in literature.

Our definition in the CRM clearly follows the second citation,
"that it is not possible to generalize from the aboutness of
  individual sentences in a document to the aboutness of the document as a
  whole".

In precisely this sense, "P129 is about" is more specific than "P67 refers to".

The notion of "propositonal aboutness" you cite from Russell clearly does not
fit with what we intended with P129. I do not grasp actually the distinction
from the point of view what either phrase tells me about reality. If I am not completely
wrong, there are scenarios of use in which both phrases are completely equivalent.
The CRM does not intend to analyze the semantics of linguistic forms.

The notion of aboutness I mentioned in the scope note of the Propositional Object
is precisely that "this expression makes a statement about". I think we can find a
respective view in early Wittgenstein?

We need P67 as the most general notion that an entity is mentioned, in order to collect
all information available "about" it.

Do you have any definition of "aboutness" from library science which comes closer to
our understanding?

Could someone look up early Wittgenstein to find support for P67?

Best,

Martin



João Oliveira wrote:
> Dear Martin and CIDOC CRM experts,
> 
>  
> 
> My concerning is about the subsumption relationship that exists between 
> 'P67 refers to (is referred to by)' and 'P129 is about (is subject of)' 
> properties. I think the latter is not a subproperty of the former.
> 
>  
> 
> To justify my opinion, I will use two sources: one from Philosophy and 
> another from Library/Information Science.
> 
> The domain and image of these two properties are the same: E73 
> Information Object (or E89 Propositional Object) and E1 CRM Entity 
> respectively. At the end of this message there is the current P67 and 
> P129 scope notes.
> 
>  
> 
> In "Philosophy Without Ambiguity: A Logico-linguistic Essay / Atlas, J. 
> D." (p. 102) we can find the following:
> 
> ///////////////////////////////
> 
> "for his (Russell) present propositional ABOUTNESS is a primitive 
> concept; and as it is for purposes of explanation a basic notion, it 
> would be desirable eventually to reduce it, by an appropriate 
> definition, to even more fundamental notions, though he does not know 
> what such notions are. It is clear, however, that such notions are not 
> 'term', 'mention', or 'reference' which have instead been characterized 
> in term of 'aboutness'. Russell continues:
> 
> <quote>"And we distinguish between 'A is the father of B' and 
> 'Fatherhood holds between A and B': the latter, but not the former, is 
> ABOUT fatherhood as well as A and B, and asserts, while the former does 
> not, a relation of fatherhood to A and B. Hence, although, at first 
> sight, the difference might seem to be a merely subjective difference of 
> emphasis, it results that there is a real LOGICAL difference [emphasis 
> added]"</quote>
> 
> ///////////////////////////////
> 
>  
> 
>  From this quotation, it's clear that (from the logico-linguistic point 
> of view) the 'reference' could be characterized by 'aboutness' but not 
> the opposite.
> 
>  
> 
> The P129 Scope Note make a reference to the "sense of 'aboutness' used 
> in library science". I think this definition should be reconsidered to a 
> specific sense because it's possible to find a lot of 'aboutness' 
> definitions in Library Scince. For example, in 'The Intellectual 
> Foundation of Information Organization / Elaine Svenonius' (p. 46-7) 
> it's possible to find incompatible 'aboutness' definitions from Bill 
> Marron vs. Christopher Fox & Terry Norreault vs. Brian Vickery vs. 
> Patrick Wilson. The latter "rejects the (grammatical) model on the 
> grounds that it is not possible to generalize from the aboutness of 
> individual sentences in a document to the aboutness of the document as a 
> whole". 
> 
>  
> 
> So, I think that CIDOC CRM (in the light of FRBRoo concepts) should 
> offer a more precise P129 Scope Note (or "the 'aboutness' must be define 
> without 'references' to external sources" :-), and should drop the 
> subsumption relationship between P67 and P129.
> 
>  
> 
> Best
> 
>  
> 
> Joao Oliveira
> 
>  
> 
> PS. More information about 'aboutness' and Patrick Wilson's aboutness 
> definition at [ 
> http://www.db.dk/bh/Core%20Concepts%20in%20LIS/articles%20a-z/subject.htm ]
> 
>  
> 
> //////////////////////
> 
> P129 is about (is subject of) - Scope Note
> 
> "This property identifies a E1 CRM Entity that is the subject of an E73 
> Information Object, in the sense of "aboutness" used in library science. 
> This differs from P67 refers to (is referred to by), which refers to an 
> E1 CRM Entity, in that it describes the primary subject or subjects of 
> the E73 Information Object."
> 
>  
> 
> P67 refers to (is referred to by) - Scope Note
> 
> "An E73 Information Object may refer to any other E1 CRM Entity.
> 
> This property documents that an E73 Information Object makes a statement 
> about an instance of an E1 CRM Entity. P67refers to (is referred to by) 
> has the P67.1 has type link to an instance of E55 Type. This is intended 
> to allow a more detailed description of the type of reference. This 
> differs from P129 is about (is subject of), which describes the primary 
> subject or subjects of the E73 Information Object."
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 3:45 PM, martin <martin at ics.forth.gr 
> <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
> 
>     Dear All,
> 
>     Attached a proposal of a scope note for E89 Propositional Object.
>     This class would
>     allow us to model the distinction of symbolic form and conceptual
>     content on top of
>     E73 Information Object, which combines both.
> 
>     Best
> 
>     martin
>     -- 
> 
>     --------------------------------------------------------------
>      Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
>      Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
>                                   |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr
>     <mailto:martin at ics.forth.gr> |
>                                                                 |
>                   Center for Cultural Informatics               |
>                   Information Systems Laboratory                |
>                    Institute of Computer Science                |
>       Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
>                                                                 |
>      Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
>                                                                 |
>             Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
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-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
  Principle Researcher          |  Fax:+30(2810)391638        |
                                |  Email: martin at ics.forth.gr |
                                                              |
                Center for Cultural Informatics               |
                Information Systems Laboratory                |
                 Institute of Computer Science                |
    Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)   |
                                                              |
  Vassilika Vouton,P.O.Box1385,GR71110 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
                                                              |
          Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl               |
--------------------------------------------------------------



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